jeb! says we all need to work longer hours :|

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blueblahbleh
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11 Jul 2015, 7:36 pm

Uncensored - Key & Peele - Little Homie: http://youtu.be/pSDTmJtE-Bc



blauSamstag
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11 Jul 2015, 8:48 pm

beneficii wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
beneficii wrote:
blauSamsting,

You are misusing the term reductio ad absurdum. It is NOT a fallacy, but is simply taking a point to its absurd logical conclusion to show that one or more of its premises are wrong. It can't be used everywhere, and I question whether that is what OOM was using, but it is NOT a fallacy and it certainly isn't bullying.


I need to set aside some time to actually study logical fallacies and associated BS ways of arguing.

Belittling someone's position by ascribing an absurd extreme version is absolutely bullying.

She says they are friends? Maybe she's just not nice to her friends.


That is not reductio ad absurdum. Reductio ad absurdum is where you take the premises the person establishes with their conclusion and take those premises to their logical conclusion (i.e. you come up with the conclusion that follows from those premises). By showing that the logical conclusion is absurd, you show that the set of premises is incorrect. You can also use it to show how the omission of certain premises leads to an absurd logical conclusion. It does not necessarily concern the arguer, but the set of premises presented.

An example of reductio ad absurdum applied to mathematics comes from Wikipedia, showing that the concept of a smallest real number greater than zero is absurd by taking the concept to its logical conclusion: Basically, you can divide any number by two, and dividing any real number that is greater than zero by two will ALWAYS yield a smaller number (smaller, meaning closer to zero, and smallest, meaning closest to zero; basically where N is a real number, N > 0, and "/" represents division, N / 2 < N is ALWAYS true); therefore, no number can be the smallest in the set of real numbers greater than zero.



I yield to your greater knowledge on the subject. I need to take some time and study what the Amazing Randi has written on the subject of detecting and combating BS.

At any rate, "you believe (Blah blah blah negative silly thing)" is belittlement, and not a feature of respectful dialog.

Belittlement of her own friend perhaps, but by extension belittlement of a shared ideal, and i found that offensive.



wowiexist
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11 Jul 2015, 11:14 pm

It is unclear to me exactly what he meant by that. It would be a bad comment if he meant people working 40 hours need to work overtime. However there are people who are working part-time who need full-time work. That may have been what he meant. It is not clear what he meant just from what is said in the article.



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11 Jul 2015, 11:36 pm

wowiexist wrote:
It is unclear to me exactly what he meant by that. It would be a bad comment if he meant people working 40 hours need to work overtime. However there are people who are working part-time who need full-time work. That may have been what he meant. It is not clear what he meant just from what is said in the article.

I don't believe HE knew what he was talking about, IOW he just as likely was emitting noise from his thoughtless gob.



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11 Jul 2015, 11:40 pm

I might be the minority, but I believe that we should have more people working fewer hours. Not only would this cut down on unemployment, but it would give people more time to devote to their personal interests, more time to spend with friends and family, and it would reduce the mental, and physical stresses from working too much.

Right now the standard is 40+ hours for full time employees, and around 20 hours for part-time employees (I know this varies alot). I think full time should be changed to around 30 hours per week (32, would probably work out better), and overtime should be volunteer only.

The only way this would work though, is if employers paid people more per hour, people wasted less money on unnecessary things, and/or the cost of living was adjusted, accordingly.



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11 Jul 2015, 11:46 pm

more people working fewer hours has been a long-time dream of the utopian types [including myself]. in America, I don't believe it will happen, but in more enlightened parts of the world it is already starting to happen.



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12 Jul 2015, 12:01 am

auntblabby wrote:
more people working fewer hours has been a long-time dream of the utopian types [including myself]. in America, I don't believe it will happen, but in more enlightened parts of the world it is already starting to happen.


It may eventually happen in America, but right now, greed and capitalism is king, and this completely goes against that idea. The problem here, is that all of the money gets funneled into a small percentage of people's hands, which means it isn't being spread around evenely enough, for this to work the way it should.



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12 Jul 2015, 12:03 am

Quote:
My aspiration for the country and I believe we can achieve it, is 4 percent growth as far as the eye can see. Which means we have to be a lot more productive, workforce participation has to rise from its all-time modern lows. It means that people need to work longer hours.

Work force participation rates are low, if anyone is celebrating this anemic recovery, then they are totally out of touch. The simple fact is people are really struggling. So giving people a chance to work longer hours has got to be part of the answer. If not, you are going to see people lose hope. And that’s where we are today.


He's talking about three things here that are not really the same thing, and connected inversely rather than directly.

The labor force participation rate includes everyone (sort of) over 16 years old who works 15 hours or more in a given week.

Thus, most people who work part time jobs are included in the numbers used to calculate labor force participation.

An increase in the availability of part time work will increase the labor participation rate without necessarily allowing people to "work longer hours". Unless they work more than one job, and a lot of people do.

Unlike the "jobless rate" calculation, someone working more than one part time job doesn't get counted more than once in the labor force participation rate.

You read that right - someone working two jobs deletes a job-seeker from the jobless rate calculation.

Jeb! is correct that more people should be allowed to work full-time. However, if there is not an associated increase in the amount of work that an employer gets done, employee A getting a full 40 hours will be taking away hours from other workers. This will vary from having no impact on labor force participation, to decreasing labor force participation.

I already explained how workforce productivity is calculated. Less people doing the same work results in a higher productivity calculation in terms of hours paid vs. profit.

Right now, most established businesses are sitting on a great deal of cash - far more than they were in 2007 before things got bad. Profit margins are wider than they were in 2007, by a lot. That is normal and expected.

When the economy gets sketchy, businesses reduce costs and try to put themselves in a stronger position to survive. That almost always means reducing workforce costs by laying people off and cutting benefits for the people who are still working - often by reducing their hours under 30 hours a week.

And instead of investing the money they earn into advancing the business by developing new products and new markets, they save it. They get very stingy. Within these companies it gets very hard to get permission to take risks, to do new things or to bring in new people.

Often, people are expected to work longer hours - exactly the words that Jeb! used. Some of these employees are what is called "exempt" -- employees who are salaried instead of paid by the hour. Until Obama changed the rules for this, they could be making as little as $23,700 a year -- a number that was set in 1975. That's less than $12/hr if they were working 40 hours a week, and a lot of them worked more than 60 without getting overtime pay. This is what happens when you get "promoted" into "management" at a lot of companies.

$23,700 in 1975 is over $100,000 today.

The new threshold is $50,000/yr, less than half what it should be if it had tracked inflation.

A lot of (non-union) factories and service companies will lean on their workers to work off the clock - work longer hours with no increase in pay. Someone here on the thread suggested that there was nothing wrong with this, but when your boss tells you to do something or else you will lose your job, and keep your mouth shut or else everyone will lose their jobs, and the job market isn't so good that you can go find another job in a day or so, that's just plain evil, and having gone along with it doesn't mean that the guy who leaned on you to do it isn't an evil bastard who does not deserve to draw breath.

So i figure that Jeb! said something completely stupid that was based on good advice from his campaign people, that he only half listened to.

Because he's an out-of-touch plutocrat.



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12 Jul 2015, 8:01 am

Jeb Bush sounds like an out of touch with reality Elitist. Typical. His family has bought huge chunks of river in South America so he can bottle the water and sell it to the third world so that family will always have a group of impoverished to power trip over and hold hostage.



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12 Jul 2015, 8:43 am

Yep, let's redefine an hour to be 100 minutes :P


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12 Jul 2015, 7:56 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
Yep, let's redefine an hour to be 100 minutes :P

don't give 'em any ideas!



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12 Jul 2015, 8:40 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the "showing porn to a bunny" sorta hurt. :|

No! It was like I was taking a sweet wonderful innocent and loving bunny and making him watch the dirtiest filthiest porn ever and ruining his innocence. I feel like when I tell you how I see how things are and it goes so against how you see them to be that it's taking away the way you want to see the world. The bunny is good in this example and the porn is bad in it. It's opposite of how I'd usually use those two I know, but I meant it in a good way.

Pssst----I think he was teasing----at least, I HOPE he was, cuz it really made me LOL, when I read it!

We know you're having "some days", right now----cuz, you TOLD us, you were----so, we'll just wait 'til "these days", are over......


I thought the bunny comment was pretty good and would make him laugh. It was a compliment. I feel like trying to get him to see things the way I do is ruining his "innocence" even though he's not innocent, he just sees things differently.


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12 Jul 2015, 8:46 pm

the reason that comment was deflating to me, is because it reminds me of how ineffectual an adult human being I am, IOW I am indeed closer to being a bunny than a real live man. IOW it hit close to home. no offense taken.



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12 Jul 2015, 9:02 pm

auntblabby wrote:
the reason that comment was deflating to me, is because it reminds me of how ineffectual an adult human being I am, IOW I am indeed closer to being a bunny than a real live man. IOW it hit close to home. no offense taken.



Oh you are not an ineffectual man. Don't measure yourself by me. Stallone and Patton would come up lacking if they were measured by me and I'm not bragging, it's a pain in the ass to be like this sometimes cause everybody comes to you with their problems like they do a man. My grandfather wanted a boy and he got me instead so he worked overtime to make me really butch. I'd be a kickass lesbian but I'm not attracted to girls at all. However, I'm more manly than my husband the alpha male. I do dress and act like a nice, feminine lady for the most part but everybody knows whats under that veneer, and if they don't and they piss me off then they get a surprise!

But don't feel bad for seeing things through rose colored glasses. That is a good trait. If everybody else was like you then the world would be a much better place. I was just born in a bad area and grew up there and hung with those kind of people. They are the kind that I identify with and know best. The very kind that you want to help. So, when I tell you what I think would happen, or how it would be received it's from my own experience with those kind of people. Even today all my best friends tend to be a bit edgy. The kind of people that nice folks don't want around.

Don't you dare be talking bad about yourself! I mean it! I WILL jump all over you for doing that! Cause you are a great guy and a good friend and I admire you, so there!


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12 Jul 2015, 9:08 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
Yep, let's redefine an hour to be 100 minutes :P

Like in the French Revolution to metric time: http://zapatopi.net/metrictime/

And still make you work 8 hours a day in it (where the day was divided into 10 hours)



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12 Jul 2015, 9:34 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
the "showing porn to a bunny" sorta hurt. :|

No! It was like I was taking a sweet wonderful innocent and loving bunny and making him watch the dirtiest filthiest porn ever and ruining his innocence. I feel like when I tell you how I see how things are and it goes so against how you see them to be that it's taking away the way you want to see the world. The bunny is good in this example and the porn is bad in it. It's opposite of how I'd usually use those two I know, but I meant it in a good way.

Pssst----I think he was teasing----at least, I HOPE he was, cuz it really made me LOL, when I read it!

We know you're having "some days", right now----cuz, you TOLD us, you were----so, we'll just wait 'til "these days", are over......


I thought the bunny comment was pretty good and would make him laugh. It was a compliment. I feel like trying to get him to see things the way I do is ruining his "innocence" even though he's not innocent, he just sees things differently.



I read it more like the joke about teaching a dog to drive.

All you'll do is waste your time and annoy the dog.