Calls for Planned Parenthood video investigation
31 Jul 2015, 7:41 pm
kamiyu910 wrote:
What about when birth control fails? I've known people whose parents were not only using condoms, but the mothers were on the pill as well. They joked they were born wearing armor. The Plan B pill doesn't even always work. Sometimes, all safety precautions fail and there's no way for the mother to care for a child.
And what about someone who was coerced into having sex and ends up pregnant from that? There are women who are compliant and passive, or even not overly smart, and men who are smooth talkers who won't stick around. Sometimes it takes a few months to realize pregnancy has happened (took me 2 months with my first, and I wouldn't have realized it had my doctor not suggested it). Sometimes women can do everything right and still fail, and other times they can be tricked and seduced, and then the women are the ones who are left to deal with the mess. (I'm not going to touch the instances where the man wants the abortion)
And what about someone who was coerced into having sex and ends up pregnant from that? There are women who are compliant and passive, or even not overly smart, and men who are smooth talkers who won't stick around. Sometimes it takes a few months to realize pregnancy has happened (took me 2 months with my first, and I wouldn't have realized it had my doctor not suggested it). Sometimes women can do everything right and still fail, and other times they can be tricked and seduced, and then the women are the ones who are left to deal with the mess. (I'm not going to touch the instances where the man wants the abortion)
There's this really good shot that works for three months. The shot is my favorite of all. No pills to take. It's wonderful. It's very effective. Depo Provera is so effective it is prefered by OB/GYNs after women give birth. They are not supposed to conceive for at least three months to give their bodies time to adjust and the uterus' lining to thicken. Doctors trust this shot so much, they give it to new mothers because they are sure it will keep them from getting pregnant too soon. Also, it can keep periods from being so burdensome by causing them to be lighter. Sometimes, they go away over time if the woman keeps getting shots every three months. Never fear, it's safe for the uterus if they do. They come back once Depo Provera is no longer effective and she can conceive again if she chooses.
31 Jul 2015, 7:48 pm
kamiyu910 wrote:
I knew a woman who used abortion as birth control. It's so depressing when someone has that kind of mindset... though considering the children she did have... I dunno. I would much rather people did not do abortion, even if their kids turn out to be horribly selfish backstabbing [censored].
I have seen post-abortion side effects in women I care about that I would not wish upon my greatest enemies. I know that has a lot to do with why I think using it as a substitute for protected sex is pretty f*****g stupid. It also has a lot to do with why I disagree with pro-lifers when they say that abortion is an act of convenience. Anybody on either side of the fence who seriously believes that does not know what the hell they are talking about.
Jacoby
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31 Jul 2015, 7:50 pm
KagamineLen wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Wrong or not, it exists and there are reasons for it whether we like it or not. Not every woman who becomes pregnant does so of her own volition. Would you deny abortion to woman under special circumstance?
I know some pro-lifers who do, even if the child is already dead.
I know some pro-lifers who do, even if the child is already dead.
The logic I use is that by consenting to sex is consenting to the possibility of becoming pregnant and believe that mothers just as fathers should be responsible for the lives they create as a result of it. It makes me uncomfortable since the unborn child didn't do anything but rape is an act of violence that you are entitled to be able to defend yourself from, I don't think it would be right to force somebody to raise their rapist's child. Obviously you have the health of the mother to worry about too but these are extreme circumstances that I think of as separate from the greater abortion issue. When I speak about abortion, I'm talking the most common 99% of it.
Uhm..... A lot more than 1% of the abortions taking place today are the result of rape and incest.
I do believe that abortion is not a great substitute for having protected sex, but really?
I'd be curious at seeing those statistics if you have those, a lot more than 1%? There are 1.2 million abortions done every year, RAINN puts the number of rapes/sexual assaults at a little under 300,000 per year which is not differentiating men or women or anything but realistically how many pregnancies result from those attacks? The commonly cited number is 5% which would be 15,000k per year but remember that encompasses all sexual assaults in that 300k so not just women. Maybe that 5% number incidence is higher that whatever the real figure is, I don't know. Hard to get accurate information but I think I think it is safe to say it is a small percentage.
31 Jul 2015, 7:57 pm
Jacoby wrote:
KagamineLen wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Wrong or not, it exists and there are reasons for it whether we like it or not. Not every woman who becomes pregnant does so of her own volition. Would you deny abortion to woman under special circumstance?
I know some pro-lifers who do, even if the child is already dead.
I know some pro-lifers who do, even if the child is already dead.
The logic I use is that by consenting to sex is consenting to the possibility of becoming pregnant and believe that mothers just as fathers should be responsible for the lives they create as a result of it. It makes me uncomfortable since the unborn child didn't do anything but rape is an act of violence that you are entitled to be able to defend yourself from, I don't think it would be right to force somebody to raise their rapist's child. Obviously you have the health of the mother to worry about too but these are extreme circumstances that I think of as separate from the greater abortion issue. When I speak about abortion, I'm talking the most common 99% of it.
Uhm..... A lot more than 1% of the abortions taking place today are the result of rape and incest.
I do believe that abortion is not a great substitute for having protected sex, but really?
I'd be curious at seeing those statistics if you have those, a lot more than 1%? There are 1.2 million abortions done every year, RAINN puts the number of rapes/sexual assaults at a little under 300,000 per year which is not differentiating men or women or anything but realistically how many pregnancies result from those attacks? The commonly cited number is 5% which would be 15,000k per year but remember that encompasses all sexual assaults. Maybe that 5% number is higher, I don't know. Hard to get accurate information but I think I think it is safe to say it is a small percentage.
This answer may be interpreted as a copout, and if you want to take it as that, I will accept it.
Most acts of rape and incest will never be known to anybody outside of the victim and the perpetrator.
As an incest victim myself, being pressured into silence by my family, I can believe that there really is no way of knowing what the exact percentage is. And I can believe that sexual abuse is far more pervasive than what the actual recorded numbers are, because sexual molestation and rape has been happening throughout many generations of my bloodline, and I am the first person who dared to speak out openly about it. I am a man, and I cannot imagine how painful it must be for a female rape victim must feel when she goes into the doctor's office. Sexual violence victims are often ridiculed and shamed and discredited. I know that from personal experience, and I don't even have the possibility of ever becoming pregnant.
31 Jul 2015, 7:58 pm
Jacoby wrote:
KagamineLen wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Wrong or not, it exists and there are reasons for it whether we like it or not. Not every woman who becomes pregnant does so of her own volition. Would you deny abortion to woman under special circumstance?
I know some pro-lifers who do, even if the child is already dead.
I know some pro-lifers who do, even if the child is already dead.
The logic I use is that by consenting to sex is consenting to the possibility of becoming pregnant and believe that mothers just as fathers should be responsible for the lives they create as a result of it. It makes me uncomfortable since the unborn child didn't do anything but rape is an act of violence that you are entitled to be able to defend yourself from, I don't think it would be right to force somebody to raise their rapist's child. Obviously you have the health of the mother to worry about too but these are extreme circumstances that I think of as separate from the greater abortion issue. When I speak about abortion, I'm talking the most common 99% of it.
Uhm..... A lot more than 1% of the abortions taking place today are the result of rape and incest.
I do believe that abortion is not a great substitute for having protected sex, but really?
I'd be curious at seeing those statistics if you have those, a lot more than 1%? There are 1.2 million abortions done every year, RAINN puts the number of rapes/sexual assaults at a little under 300,000 per year which is not differentiating men or women or anything but realistically how many pregnancies result from those attacks? The commonly cited number is 5% which would be 15,000k per year but remember that encompasses all sexual assaults in that 300k so not just women. Maybe that 5% number incidence is higher that whatever the real figure is, I don't know. Hard to get accurate information but I think I think it is safe to say it is a small percentage.
I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown as well. I don't think there's a large percentage of pregnancies related to rape, though I know our rape stats are skewed by the fact not all rape victims report it. I'm wondering how many abortions are done due to fetal health complications, mother health complications, both, or life situation complications. Or how many are pressured into getting an abortion by a dad who doesn't want the responsibility?
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31 Jul 2015, 11:12 pm
Jacoby wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Fugu wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The argument doesn't go beyond that you support abortion and I don't, there is nothing else to discuss. Understandably you refuse to engage because you can't. Goodbye.
incorrect, the argument won't go beyond that because you ignore anything that doesn't fit your worldview.Confirmation bias is the tendency for people to (consciously or unconsciously) seek out information that conforms to their pre-existing view points, and subsequently ignore information that goes against them
What information am I ignoring? Provide it.
here's one example(I'd provide more but that would be too time consuming and I have to leave for home in a short while)
Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
How do those numbers align with poverty rates by race?
Also, how is PP enticing mainly minorities into aborting? Through marketing or something?
Also, how is PP enticing mainly minorities into aborting? Through marketing or something?
So is it right to kill the poor? That aligns just fine with eugenics, they want to eliminate the undesirable parts of the population and they've been very effective at it at the tune of 55 million lives lost since 1973. They're taking advantage of desperate women looking for a way out of the responsibility for the mistake they made of their own fruition. I wouldn't call it a mistake tho and don't think most women regret not murdering their child in retrospect, these are children capable and receiving love just as you or I. I support every regulation they throw at abortion, I think waiting periods should be extended and ultrasounds mandated. You should feel guilty if you murder your child but it is these doctors who are the real criminals.
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it. A drug dealer doesn't need to market smack. I apologize if brevity isn't my strong point. Many poor white people weren't thought as racial equals either to elitists like Margaret Sanger, it's about reducing the undesirable parts of the population and race is just but one part of that to these people.
Also I read all your posts kamiyu910, I didn't ignore them. I just already felt I already addressed what you were saying and didn't want to keep repeating myself. If you address something specifically then bring it forward.
Taking advantage?
What's in it for PP?
13 Aug 2015, 9:44 am
Jacoby wrote:
...
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it. A drug dealer doesn't need to market smack. I apologize if brevity isn't my strong point. Many poor white people weren't thought as racial equals either to elitists like Margaret Sanger, it's about reducing the undesirable parts of the population and race is just but one part of that to these people.
Also I read all your posts kamiyu910, I didn't ignore them. I just already felt I already addressed what you were saying and didn't want to keep repeating myself. If you address something specifically then bring it forward.
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it. A drug dealer doesn't need to market smack. I apologize if brevity isn't my strong point. Many poor white people weren't thought as racial equals either to elitists like Margaret Sanger, it's about reducing the undesirable parts of the population and race is just but one part of that to these people.
Also I read all your posts kamiyu910, I didn't ignore them. I just already felt I already addressed what you were saying and didn't want to keep repeating myself. If you address something specifically then bring it forward.
Actually, abortion helps minorities. Unless you think having tons of unwanted babies is a recipe for success? Abortion is the major reason crime rates plummeted since the 1970's. Read Freakonomics if you don't believe me.
Jacoby
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13 Aug 2015, 9:50 am
AspE wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
...
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it. A drug dealer doesn't need to market smack. I apologize if brevity isn't my strong point. Many poor white people weren't thought as racial equals either to elitists like Margaret Sanger, it's about reducing the undesirable parts of the population and race is just but one part of that to these people.
Also I read all your posts kamiyu910, I didn't ignore them. I just already felt I already addressed what you were saying and didn't want to keep repeating myself. If you address something specifically then bring it forward.
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it. A drug dealer doesn't need to market smack. I apologize if brevity isn't my strong point. Many poor white people weren't thought as racial equals either to elitists like Margaret Sanger, it's about reducing the undesirable parts of the population and race is just but one part of that to these people.
Also I read all your posts kamiyu910, I didn't ignore them. I just already felt I already addressed what you were saying and didn't want to keep repeating myself. If you address something specifically then bring it forward.
Actually, abortion helps minorities. Unless you think having tons of unwanted babies is a recipe for success? Abortion is the major reason crime rates plummeted since the 1970's. Read Freakonomics if you don't believe me.
I do not support eugenics
13 Aug 2015, 11:40 am
Jacoby wrote:
AspE wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
...
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it.
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it.
Actually, abortion helps minorities. Unless you think having tons of unwanted babies is a recipe for success? Abortion is the major reason crime rates plummeted since the 1970's. Read Freakonomics if you don't believe me.
I do not support eugenics
Jacoby
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13 Aug 2015, 12:47 pm
The_Walrus wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
AspE wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
...
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it.
About the poverty rate? Or how they're enticing minorities? I just said simply that they're taking advantage of the situations of vulnerable desperate women, that is how I see it.
Actually, abortion helps minorities. Unless you think having tons of unwanted babies is a recipe for success? Abortion is the major reason crime rates plummeted since the 1970's. Read Freakonomics if you don't believe me.
I do not support eugenics
I reject the notion that we are better off, I reject the idea that these lives are better off not lived and that they had nothing positive to contribute. The idea that abortion somehow cleanses society is the same idea that eugenicists had, the movement started in America and it all analogues.
13 Aug 2015, 1:05 pm
It's more of a pleasant side effect than the main reason to allow abortion. I'm sure you're familiar with the arguments from autonomy, liberty, etc.
Would there come a point at which you thought "wow, every three abortions stops a murder? I've changed my mind", or are you so principled that you're completely against consequentialist arguments in favour of abortion? Nothing wrong with that - although I must admit, I am slightly surprised that you're not convinced by libertarian arguments.
Jacoby
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13 Aug 2015, 2:08 pm
The_Walrus wrote:
It's more of a pleasant side effect than the main reason to allow abortion. I'm sure you're familiar with the arguments from autonomy, liberty, etc.
Would there come a point at which you thought "wow, every three abortions stops a murder? I've changed my mind", or are you so principled that you're completely against consequentialist arguments in favour of abortion? Nothing wrong with that - although I must admit, I am slightly surprised that you're not convinced by libertarian arguments.
Would there come a point at which you thought "wow, every three abortions stops a murder? I've changed my mind", or are you so principled that you're completely against consequentialist arguments in favour of abortion? Nothing wrong with that - although I must admit, I am slightly surprised that you're not convinced by libertarian arguments.
I don't think you can or should quantify someone's potential by the circumstances of their birth, I oppose that totally. I would think you would agree that it is a failure on our parts, society, that so many people are relegated to a life of suffering, I don't believe there isn't enough resources to go around or that we can't build a better world. The Malthusian dilemma is as wrong at the time it was written as it is now.
The libertarian argument on abortion comes down to whether or not you believe it's a human life, I believe my views are consistent with that.
13 Aug 2015, 2:26 pm
nurseangela wrote:
Actually, my friend Julia sent me a website last night that showed in China how human fetuses are becoming a delicacy to eat. There are actual pictures and everything. I couldn't believe it. Chinese people already eat dogs and stuff over there, don't they?
Hey, are you off your meds again???
13 Aug 2015, 2:29 pm
nurseangela wrote:
My news sources have focused on Planned Parenthood too. I don't recall exactly all that was said because I'm on to other news now, but I don't believe Planned Parenthood is on the up and up. Stories from the news I watch show them doing things on camera they shouldn't be doing (I believe one of the things was not giving women all the information they should have before having an abortion). The reason they are watched so closely is because they are getting government funding.
Care to share what exactly doctors are withholding from patients???
You probably think that abortion causes sterility and other nonsense like that...
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