Why is Jazz put on the same level as Classical music?

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rvacountrysinger
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24 Jul 2015, 3:49 pm

Its something I don't understand. Music snobs lump Jazz and Classical together as the "superior" music as opposed to Popular music. Classical I understand- it has lasted all these years for a reason. But Jazz, I don't get it. Jazz has a lot more in common with Popular music- it just sounds like a bunch of musicians got together and can't decide on which song to play. Also, little emotion in Jazz.

I have nothing against Jazz musicians- I do agree it takes skill and all of that. But why is it considered an "elevated" form of music? This is true in most colleges and universities even- they have a Jazz Department. They do not have a Country and Western department. Its complete opposite of Classical music to my ears. I don't hate Jazz, to me its nice for background music at a coffee shop or bookstore, but to sit down and listen to it , no thanks!

In Classical there is more emotion usually, although I don't understand I-talian Operas very well. But I see why people respect Classical music as a higher level of music- and I don't take offense at that. But why Jazz?



nerdygirl
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24 Jul 2015, 4:07 pm

I don't consider jazz to be "popular" music at all. It is harmonically much more complicated than popular music, requires much more technical skill than playing popular music, and is not as easily digested by the average listener as popular music.

I find there to be a bit more creative freedom within the realm of classical music, but I do think jazz rightly deserves it's place as a genre of study in music conservatories. (To be fair, there are some schools that specialize in popular music as well!)

Jazz is a unique form of music. It's not exactly high art, like classical music, but it is not exactly popular or folk art though it started out as a folk form (blues.) I also have to mention that I am *amazed* at the technical skill of many folk performers, especially in Bluegrass. (And, BTW, banjo used to be part of some classical music. It fell out of favor over the years.) Jazz deserves a lot of respect and study, not only for its musical merits but also its cultural heritage.

I also disagree about the lack of emotion in jazz. I think it depends on the players & composers.



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24 Jul 2015, 4:38 pm

rvacountrysinger wrote:
Also, little emotion in Jazz.


Right there is literally where everyone will stop taking your opinion seriously. The foundation of jazz is in improvisation. Free jazz is practically the aural equivalent of abstract expressionism. Jazz isn't for everyone, but to say it lacks emotion is akin to saying blues and soul lacks the same; it's a fundamental element of the music. To listen to something like 'Kind of Blue' or 'A Love Supreme' and say it doesn't even come off as emotive or expressive is not just the opinion of someone who has an obvious bias against other genres of music which aren't country (seriously, how many of these threads are you going to make?) but someone who has likely never listened to an actual jazz album in their life.

To answer your question, jazz is one of the most structurally complicated and versatile genres of music. There's plenty of "easy" jazz like the Kenny G smooth jazz you'd hear in an elevator (ick), but between free jazz, bebop, hard bop, fusion, modal jazz, Afro-Cuban, jazz funk and on and on and on and on, it's an astoundingly complex form of music that rivals the dense orchestration and arrangements of classical music. Modern country music, on the other hand, is traditionally structured pop songs in 4/4 time. Bluegrass is more technically challenging than most country music, and 'progressive bluegrass' takes cues from jazz in lengthy improvisation and non-traditional structure.



KagamineLen
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24 Jul 2015, 4:51 pm

The jazz that makes mainstream radio really is no better than pop music.

But good jazz requires raw talent, technical perfection and a willingness to experiment - which is the exact opposite of pop.

I can understand when somebody has only Kenny G as an example thinking that jazz is emotionless and pointless, however.



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24 Jul 2015, 5:04 pm

Skibz888 wrote:
rvacountrysinger wrote:
Also, little emotion in Jazz.


Right there is literally where everyone will stop taking your opinion seriously. The foundation of jazz is in improvisation. Free jazz is practically the aural equivalent of abstract expressionism. Jazz isn't for everyone, but to say it lacks emotion is akin to saying blues and soul lacks the same; it's a fundamental element of the music. To listen to something like 'Kind of Blue' or 'A Love Supreme' and say it doesn't even come off as emotive or expressive is not just the opinion of someone who has an obvious bias against other genres of music which aren't country (seriously, how many of these threads are you going to make?) but someone who has likely never listened to an actual jazz album in their life.

To answer your question, jazz is one of the most structurally complicated and versatile genres of music. There's plenty of "easy" jazz like the Kenny G smooth jazz you'd hear in an elevator (ick), but between free jazz, bebop, hard bop, fusion, modal jazz, Afro-Cuban, jazz funk and on and on and on and on, it's an astoundingly complex form of music that rivals the dense orchestration and arrangements of classical music. Modern country music, on the other hand, is traditionally structured pop songs in 4/4 time. Bluegrass is more technically challenging than most country music, and 'progressive bluegrass' takes cues from jazz in lengthy improvisation and non-traditional structure.


A great post and explanation.

Jazz is a popular music (not sure why "popular" is such a pejorative here--it just means that many people like it). It certainly was in the beginning, like classical, and is held in high esteem partly for being as old as it is. One day rock and roll will be in the same place.

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Its complete opposite of Classical music to my ears. I don't hate Jazz, to me its nice for background music at a coffee shop or bookstore, but to sit down and listen to it , no thanks!


Do you really think classical is more emotive? I wouldn't say it's not emotional, but it's completely studied and thought-out; something considered after the emotions have passed. Jazz, at least when improv is involved, is almost all emotion. I'm wondering if what you hate is the lack of structure. I noticed a lot of fans of structured music do not like certain jazz or music like Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music because they keep expecting structure.



Skibz888
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24 Jul 2015, 5:07 pm

As usual, anyone with a Residents avatar will know what they're talking about when it comes to musicology. :wink:



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24 Jul 2015, 6:47 pm

Skibz888 wrote:
As usual, anyone with a Residents avatar will know what they're talking about when it comes to musicology. :wink:


Thank you :) They are monumental--great heroes of mine.



rvacountrysinger
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24 Jul 2015, 7:13 pm

I think simple can be brilliant. Being complex doesn't make something better necessarily. I appreciate Jazz- but I still think its more part of the Popular scene of music as it was Popular in the 1920's and lead to the "Big Band" sound of WWII era.

I have listened to plenty of Jazz. But I don't connect with it. To me, music has to mean something. Otherwise its just sound effects. Jazz doesn't have the song craft you find in Folk music.



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24 Jul 2015, 7:35 pm

Whoa now!

Jazz not emotional?!? (record screech) Seriously, I would have to disagree on that point. Many jazz songs cause me to emote in several ways. I can feel and be transported to a different place and time, become real happy, joyful, celebratory, chilled, and well, rarely sad. Anyone out there who can find jazz music to make me feel sad, please do! :)

Also, when I listen to jazz, I start walking really fast if I'm going down the street, like it gives my mind a turbo boost. Weird effect. I don't really notice it either.

I especially enjoy Spyro Gyra. This song can always put me in a happy mood: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVDZ5UY_oDw

Chip jazz is another favorite genre of mine. Check out this one, which DOES make me cry sometimes, and fills me with emotion: https://plus.google.com/+Marcusmarcb0tI/posts/X7X8fnUyquk

Chip jazz is ALL pre-programmed stuff. It may sound like improvising, but it's not. Should be a happy compromise for ya! 8)

Here is also a track that I made (Work in Progress): https://soundcloud.com/marcb0t/seaside-reflections-unfinished/s-EQdmL I used the Sega Genesis sound chip. ALL pre-programmed.

Seriously though, you claim jazz does "not have structure", when infact, most jazz music DOES have a structure. To me, it's very clear, though complex. 5/4 rythyms being my favorite. The lead melodies can often change with each song, but the chords and bassline may stay the same to give the song basic guidelines, and direction. Especially older forms of jazz, and the newest chill jazz on radio. I prefer older styles, though.

Jazz is inherently more complex than pop music in general. There are chord/bass/lead combos that are unusual, nice, and just work. It is one thing that makes jazz more palatable to me than most other forms of music.

A lot of inspiration in pop and rock music come from blues and jazz. Someone might hear a chord combo that they like from a Duke Ellington song, and use just that one over and over again with a simple melody and lyrics for instance.

There's nothing wrong with that per se. But this is common. Some pop musicians will use classical as inspiration as well. We all borrow from each other! :P


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marcb0t
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24 Jul 2015, 7:42 pm

rvacountrysinger wrote:
I think simple can be brilliant. Being complex doesn't make something better necessarily. I appreciate Jazz- but I still think its more part of the Popular scene of music as it was Popular in the 1920's and lead to the "Big Band" sound of WWII era.

I have listened to plenty of Jazz. But I don't connect with it. To me, music has to mean something. Otherwise its just sound effects. Jazz doesn't have the song craft you find in Folk music.


Now, I DO agree that simple can be brilliant. There are many complex songs that are just waaaay too much for me. Sometimes it depends on my mood, though.

Ragtime, and big band music are some of my favorite styles, by the way. They were popular at one point, but are now a niche taste. I have listened to plenty of pop music, but don't connect with it... maybe some stuff from the 70's and 80's, though.

But hey, everyone's different, and that's a beautiful-a-thing. :)


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24 Jul 2015, 8:11 pm

rvacountrysinger wrote:
I think simple can be brilliant. Being complex doesn't make something better necessarily. I appreciate Jazz- but I still think its more part of the Popular scene of music as it was Popular in the 1920's and lead to the "Big Band" sound of WWII era.

I have listened to plenty of Jazz. But I don't connect with it. To me, music has to mean something. Otherwise its just sound effects. Jazz doesn't have the song craft you find in Folk music.


Things simple and complex can be brilliant in their own regards. 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Ulysses' are both literary masterpieces: 'Mockingbird' is written in a warm, simplistic child-like style while 'Ulysses' is almost impenetrable in its experimental prose. Both are genius milestones of literature, but you can't compare them side-by-side. Only a fool would look at 'Ulysses' and think "this is too hard to read, so clearly this is a bad novel".

This is pretty much exactly what you're doing here. You don't understand jazz music (or rather, you're primarily associating it with Big Band, which is more of a dated sub-genre which doesn't reflect the genre (let alone its last 90 years) as a whole; it's like if I judged country entirely by its roots with Jimmie Rodgers in the 1920s), and by trying to compare it with the music that you listen to, you're holding it to standards which it simply isn't ever measured by. Comparing a Miles Davis song to an Elvis song is like comparing apples and oranges.



marcb0t
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24 Jul 2015, 8:20 pm

Skibz888 wrote:
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I think simple can be brilliant. Being complex doesn't make something better necessarily. I appreciate Jazz- but I still think its more part of the Popular scene of music as it was Popular in the 1920's and lead to the "Big Band" sound of WWII era.

I have listened to plenty of Jazz. But I don't connect with it. To me, music has to mean something. Otherwise its just sound effects. Jazz doesn't have the song craft you find in Folk music.


Things simple and complex can be brilliant in their own regards. 'To Kill a Mockingbird' and 'Ulysses' are both literary masterpieces: 'Mockingbird' is written in a warm, simplistic child-like style while 'Ulysses' is almost impenetrable in its experimental prose. Both are genius milestones of literature, but you can't compare them side-by-side. Only a fool would look at 'Ulysses' and think "this is too hard to read, so clearly this is a bad novel".

This is pretty much exactly what you're doing here. You don't understand jazz music (or rather, you're primarily associating it with Big Band, which is more of a dated sub-genre which doesn't reflect the genre (let alone its last 90 years) as a whole; it's like if I judged country entirely by its roots with Jimmie Rodgers in the 1920s), and by trying to compare it with the music that you listen to, you're holding it to standards which it simply isn't ever measured by. Comparing a Miles Davis song to an Elvis song is like comparing apples and oranges.


Well, gee, Skibz888,

I don't know. I personally grew up listening to jazz at a very early age. I have fond memories as a 6 year old in '91 struttin' around listening to Spyra Gyra and Chicago on my Walkman (the iPod of the 80's) :)

I think that has had a profound impact on my "connection" and understanding of jazz music. But as I said before, everyone's different.

My point is that perhaps the OP did not grow up listening to Jazz, and has no intrinsic connection to it because of that. Since lot's of other pop and rock genres borrow many elements from Jazz, he may see no real distinction between them, which is understandable.

I would agree that comparing Miles Davis to Elvis is inaccurate at best. :lol:

To me, modern country just sounds like really bad imitation 80's pop. It's not a genre I like at all, but I have come to accept other people's tastes in that. Because I understand that they probably grew up listening to it, and it connects with them at an early developmental point in life. So I respect that. Yeehaw! :mrgreen:


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24 Jul 2015, 8:28 pm

I respect other peoples' taste; I would never put anyone down for simply liking something, but rvacountrysinger has started several threads going on about how country music is "the only music that matters" and why every other genre of music is inferior to it, so pardon me if I tend to get a little snarky when he mentions how all other forms of music doesn't have "feeling" or "purpose".



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24 Jul 2015, 8:30 pm

rvacountrysinger wrote:
I think simple can be brilliant. Being complex doesn't make something better necessarily.
"Simple" is one thing - many classical works are thematically simple, becoming complex only in the execution of the composers' arrangements.

"Simplistic" is something else; popular music (i.e., country, rap, rock, western, et cetera) is simplistic, both in it's repetition of melodic motifs and the fact that most of it is derived from previous work - sampling and looping being two of the biggest travesties ever inflicted on the listening public.
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I appreciate Jazz- but I still think its more part of the Popular scene of music as it was Popular in the 1920's and lead to the "Big Band" sound of WWII era. I have listened to plenty of Jazz. But I don't connect with it. To me, music has to mean something. Otherwise its just sound effects. Jazz doesn't have the song craft you find in Folk music.
Jazz is to melody what Folk is to lyrics - both are innovative styles of telling stories with music.

If you ever want to be appreciated as a musician (or even a musicologist), you would do well to learn as many styles and genres of music. You might even find some benefit in learning how to compose and arrange, as well.



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24 Jul 2015, 8:46 pm

Skibz888 wrote:
I respect other peoples' taste; I would never put anyone down for simply liking something, but rvacountrysinger has started several threads going on about how country music is "the only music that matters" and why every other genre of music is inferior to it, so pardon me if I tend to get a little snarky when he mentions how all other forms of music doesn't have "feeling" or "purpose".


Whaaa,? I thought country music IS the only music that matters. Who could argue against that? :lol:

Seriously though, if he's been actively ranting in that manner, then I'll let you two go at it. A little healthy debate can be fun. Keep it clean though, boys. :P


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24 Jul 2015, 8:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I think simple can be brilliant. Being complex doesn't make something better necessarily.
"Simple" is one thing - many classical works are thematically simple, becoming complex only in the execution of the composers' arrangements.

"Simplistic" is something else; popular music (i.e., country, rap, rock, western, et cetera) is simplistic, both in it's repetition of melodic motifs and the fact that most of it is derived from previous work - sampling and looping being two of the biggest travesties ever inflicted on the listening public.
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I appreciate Jazz- but I still think its more part of the Popular scene of music as it was Popular in the 1920's and lead to the "Big Band" sound of WWII era. I have listened to plenty of Jazz. But I don't connect with it. To me, music has to mean something. Otherwise its just sound effects. Jazz doesn't have the song craft you find in Folk music.
Jazz is to melody what Folk is to lyrics - both are innovative styles of telling stories with music.

If you ever want to be appreciated as a musician (or even a musicologist), you would do well to learn as many styles and genres of music. You might even find some benefit in learning how to compose and arrange, as well.


Fnord, I think I just gained a whole new respect for you. Your answer was very concise, insightful, and helpful to rvacountrysinger.

Also, I respect your musical understanding here. :heart:


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