The Secular Point of View & a Theory of Everything

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Not exclusively.

Depends whether you mean freedom of my religion or freedom of your religion.

Most christians in the USA seem to believe mostly in "freedom of my religion".

Good point. I think China, Russia, and North Korea, all Godless societies, are former Left(members of the Old Left) states who have either gone off the rails, or are lost in limbo, and experimenting while they continue searching for a new identity.

Just some thoughts your post had me considering:
I have another barometer I go by in weighing whether a country is on the Left or Right, and that is the % of the economy made up by state spending. By that measurement, the US would be considered as being on the Left, maybe even to the Left of Britain and Sweden, due to its spending on military budget, but there are always exceptions to the rule and unique circumstances to consider.

Modern Europe is often framed in romantic terms, but window-dressing the cold mechanics born out of necessity, processes created to make the socialist project work, are only rationalized with ideology after they've been adopted by the demands of pragmatism. Such as Multiculturalism and Pacifism, even Secularism or the mother of all Leftwing values, Equality, are social constructs that are because they have to be, in order to enable a large consolidated state to function efficiently and ethically(non-genocidal). People can talk about, "oh, it's better to rehabilitate mass murderers then to put them to death," but at the end of the day, those ideological excuses cannot avoid the practical reasons that a large consolidated state cannot engage in violence against its own citizens as to avoid the genocidal abuses of the Old Left.

Those bare-bones mechanics, things that enable a large consolidated state to work, is a platform that can be seen experimented on/with, across many different countries/states, meshing with many different(even antithetical) values. But the platform, and what it enables(the large state), is to me, what constitutes the Left-Right divide(along with the belief in a God, or not).

On their current trajectory, China and Russia, are examples of large consolidated states that won't work, especially in the long run, because they are permissive of state violence, against their own and others. But not every state experimenting with this platform will get it right(the first, or hundredth time around), or do so ethically. Messing with a Leftish values, paradigms, economic or state platforms, won't always work out or end well, and some will even fail doing so.

We also have to be sensitive that Europe only got it right the first time around because it had the United States there to act as an incubator, accelerating its development by providing guardrails to focus its growth and maturation. So time is also a factor, and we have to be sensitive that while China and Russia may not look like California and the UK today, it may still develop towards that tomorrow, as they are likely to do with adequate shaming from the world Left to get in line and adopt culturally Left mechanics(Equality, Pacifism, Multiculturalism) that stabilize a large consolidated state/economy. I think, that given time, Russia and China, and others who play with this platform and its enabling features, will all eventually gravitate towards a very similar framework, even if each has its own unique bent/flavor/character.

And yet, underlying all of this remains that assumption, about whether a God exists. If a God doesn't exist, we have no choice but to have faith in man, that we can get this right, and don't need to wait around for a messiah to make our heaven on earth or redeem justice in this lifetime. And we can do all of this, because our imperfections come from outside forces acting upon us, causing us to act the way that we do.

If a God exists, then our imperfections were created and innate, and we can't trust individuals with power over others, or power over others in the framework of a consolidated state because we don't trust the failings of human nature, having access to so much power.

People on the Left often have a positive view of not only humanity, but of human nature. That we're born good, only corrupted by outside forces. Maybe it isn't accidental. Maybe they have no other choice.

Why would your stance on a specific deity affect any of your non-god-related views? The sceptical approach is to draw conclusions based on the individual merits of each situation, not to jump on an ideological bandwagon with those who happen to share a single point of concordance.

What is certainly true is that a more liberal environment lends itself to more outspoken atheists. Perhaps you're misplacing cause and effect?

Skeptics are free of ideology?

By the way, I'm a skeptic and I believe in a God.

Most skeptics I know aren't really skeptics. Most people who don't believe in God aren't skeptics, and of those who are skeptics(or claim the term), most of them I feel just like viewing themselves as such, as being critical people who are only interested in the facts, who are rational and ask questions, and are willing to challenge their beliefs, who are free of ideology and labels.

And then you say, "Well, I just don't see what's so rational about Allah or Islam," or "Communism was an absolute failure and can never work," and suddenly for many of them, out the window goes rationality, out the window goes asking questions or being interested in facts, or the willingness to challenge one's beliefs.

I think for most who use the term, skeptics is just an identity and not really a way of living.

Which "God"?



I won't speak for other people, only myself. How you perceive others is almost certainly skewed by your own perceptions. Scepticism is a tailored approach, not a binary switch. It's perfectly acceptable for one to accept some things on "faith" (not to be confused with the kind of "faith" one has in deities) - after all, without holding to some commonly accepted "facts" one has no basis upon which to be sceptical about anything.



You're contradicting yourself here. Your argument amounts to:

"Hey you can't be sceptical and not accept my definitely true facts."

That's inherently illogical.



Scepticism is not a way of life, it's an approach to non-imperical information or statements of fact which increases in magnitude based on the subjective believability or likelihood of said information, sometimes based on prior information in relation to a subject or claim.

What you seem to be seeking is absolute scepticism which is philosophically untenable, as a truly absolutist sceptic would be incapable of trusting their own eyes and ears - or, indeed, their own minds.

Wrong assumption, imo...
I have neither faith in a god nor man-un-kind...

Are you being poetic?
An I missing some form of irony or rhetoric?
I can be tunneled vision some times...

How do "we have no choice but to..."?

Have faith in god...
Have faith in man...
Have faith in both god and man...
Have no faith in either...

Now we have a full set of permutations...
A collector's item...

So often religion is blamed for many things when in fact it is about power.

Cromwell is a typical example. The working class and Paliamentarian Model Army realised that the Civil War was not for their benefit and rebelled. It was not possible to execute the lot so one unfortunate corporal was chosen. Decimation of rebel soldiers had been a Roman practice. The English working class did not fare well at the hands of their new rulers. It was a time of unrest which was swiftly put down.

At an earlier time in Munster the Ana-baptists had fared badly at the hands of the Lutherans. They had set-up a commune having a lot of political power and that could grow rapidly. Melancthon, rather than Luther felt this was wrong. They were slaughtered.

Here we have what we could term left wing people being persecuted by the religious right. However, there does seem to be a lot of self interest as a reason for power. As I see it state religion is bad when it mixes with secular power. The two should not be confused.

Sorry I cannot remember my sources, They were a from long time ago.

I don't think atheism leads to optimism about human nature.

Religion is a hierarchy of power. Just thought that warranted mentioning.

It's not likely to lead to much more than an interest in other atheists.

Yes, some so called Christianity is and it is the very opposite of what should be. Obviously this calls a lot into question.

Christianity, like any human system, can be abused by people who gain control of it. We shouldn't judge anything by the blatant minority, but rather by the quiet majority.

Impossible, Secular as defined means Leftist.

Leftist in Canada does not mean the same thing as Leftist in the USA. Britain, Australia, Europe in general, no two define political terms the same.

Once in Central America I said I was going home for Labor Day. I was reported to the Army for being a Communist.

They had Right Wing Death Squads, Left Wing Death Squads, Democratically Elected Death Squads, and the Church had been making people disappear for 500 years.

Freedom From Religion would be a higher goal, and politics out of season. We do not spend over a year talking about the next Deer Season.

Obama Care was proposed by Nixon. A Democrat Congress refused. Lincoln was a Republican.

Modern American Leftists claim to be for personal freedom, and for telling people what they are not allowed to say or think. There will be no discussion, we are right and you have to shut up and leave.

That is the same thing that happened when I had questions about the Bible.

The same faith that rejected me asking questions later came out of the closet, they hid behind Theology, and feared all questions.

The evolving Leftist State of Portland claims Socialist Reality, Communist Goals, but their Politically Correct views are enforced by group think that would make a Fascist or Religious State jealous.

Neither political party, or any social movement, has a plan.

A couple of pages about what the next hundred years means, what can be, what we have to watch, so we can plan to do our best by the people who will be here after we are all dead.

Like the Scarab we gather a ball of s**t and dump it on the next generation.

Since WWII we spread 100 million tons of Tetra Ethel Lead, which has lowered the IQ of those born since. Don't worry, the Superfund Sites will kill you sooner in ways no one ever died.

We did get something going with clean air and water, which allowed godless communists to invade Vietnam.

Our rivers do not catch fire, some are wild and free forever, dams removed, water released to play, fish to run, and subject to being nuked by the enemies of Freedom in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Yemen.

As someone might be living here, I think Larger Parks, National Forests, at least a museum of what life was like a hundred years ago. In the last fifty this place has turned into a strip mall, built to the lowest possible standards.

Scenic European towns we reduced to rubble 70 years ago were rebuilt to match the postcards they still had. Forests reduced to blasted stumps are now 60 year old forests.

America removed the ring of small farms supplying local markets, replaced them with suburbs and strip malls, replaced a social and local identity of a downtown shopping district with big box stores on the edge. 2000 malls a year are closing. Downtown has been dead for a generation, with no local business culture, Walmart is free to fund a Police State. The population has been removed from self government, now it is Walmart funded, and elected locals beholden to one source of tax income. Our food now comes from far away.

We have Mastered Ugly, it is time to move on.

We have photos of western grasslands that are now semi desert and brush covered. We have done more damage than war. Part of war is picking up the bodies, and rebuilding. Europe does it well, they have practice.

We do not have a town that has existed since 1500 to rebuild. We do have land, Government owned, that was forests, grassland, with lots of wildlife.

The Rachel Carson Ralph Nader era did bring some change. Public awareness and a common goal does lead to change.

We need a common vision of our common future. At least the parts we can agree on.