The Secular Point of View & a Theory of Everything

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MarketAndChurch
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22 Aug 2015, 10:08 pm

Does not believing a God exists, inherently lead to the secular leftist environments we see in San Francisco, New York, throughout East Asia, and virtually all of Europe? Here is a fun little intellectual exercise, a Theory of Everything(TOE) on why this basic assumption about life, tends to lead to the Leftist environments around the world. Feel free to share objections and critiques.

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If there is no God, then there is no afterlife, and personal happiness becomes the greatest focus on the individual level. On the societal level, we have to be our own messiah's(since another savior/deity isn't coming anyways), and save ourselves by making heaven on earth, in the only life where we'll ever get to enjoy a heaven, where all people get along, there's no disease or warfare, basic safety nets are in place, the poor are fed, and we can all do whatever makes us happy.

But one person's version of heaven may be another person's hell, so we need to run behavior against a secular barometer of ethics: Is it Safe, is it Healthy, and do all participants involved Consent. Guns aren't safe, tabacco isn't healthy, and animals don't consent to sex with humans, so all of these things are bad, unless we can prove differently. If you can't help addictive behaviors that are unhealthy, such as drug addiction(other then cigarettes), then do those drugs in places where your drug use and habit doesn't effect others. This barometer of ethics combines with core social values of Equality, Secularism, Multiculturalism, Pacifism, Feminism, etc. to create a heaven we can all share, one where most people's personal happiness can be achieved in the one life they have to live.

This is why most secular societies also don't reproduce(in terms of total fertility rate). Because children often get in the way of you enjoy adult playgrounds such as San Francisco and London and Hong Kong. They get in the way of you having multiple sexual partners a year, or from going out late every night with your friends, or from backpacking across SE Asia or Latin America, or from being involved 100% in a passion or hobby that you enjoy. You have aberrations of course, there are leftist socialist cultures who have at-replacement rate fertility, but a lot of those are often thanks to newly-arrived non-secular immigrants who come from cultures that have high birth rates.

The non-belief in a God bringing focus to the importance of this lifetime, and the kind of heaven we'd like it to be, also requires a large state, in order to create the necessary framework for all of this to play out in, to regulate morality so that individual's fun doesn't come at the expense of one another, and provide the services that allow us to abandon individual responsibilities/obligations, apart from supporting the state with our taxes.

But centralizing power invites so many abuses, so we have to incapacitate the state, from being violent, by permeating every function of government with the value of pacifism. The state can't kill or physically harm. It can't put citizens to death. Cops shouldn't carry weapons because of the likelihood for their using these arms. Judges lenient in their sentencing because prison time eats up the time you have to enjoy yourself. No involvement in foreign wars. Pacifism, guiding state policy, has no intellectual basis, and is just a social construct; it is because it has to be, in order to allow for the kind of world we want to make for ourselves in this one life we have to live.

This curbs the threat that the state poses to its citizenry, allowing the state to grow even larger and be more involved in greater facets of life. But it doesn't solve the funding issue that helps it grow, and allows it to sustain itself over the long term, especially since secular societies are too busy enjoying their one life to live by not breeding. So we have to bring in immigrants to breed on their behalf, to create the future taxpayer of tomorrow who will support the system that will take care of us when we retire early(or at least, early enough to enjoy our one life to live). Not only is lax-immigration policies a must, but allowing our future taxpayer-creators a comfortable environment to live in, we must have a multicultural setting to make them feel more at home. Their jarring ways will eventually evaporate over the long term, wherein they will see the beauty of our secular ways and convert over to it.




So there. Heaven on earth. Big government, pacifism, multiculturalism, early retirement, secular ethics, death penalty, gun ownership, anti-smoking, liberal sexual standards, unarmed police, not reproducing children, immigration, non-interventionist foreign policy, I managed to weave it all in there lol, which was fun. Like all of life, everything we do is built atop what are already a mountain of assumptions, and I think that getting to fundamental core assumptions at the root of it all, helps us to understand why people do what they do, and from what premises about the world they reason from. The absence of a God doesn't necessarily have to lead to any or all of the following conclusions, there are obviously other values at play that create the kind of frameworks that the Godless tend to build. Feel free to critique, as I'm only 28 and don't know everything but please don't take it too seriously. It's just an intellectual exercise for fun.


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blauSamstag
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23 Aug 2015, 1:35 am

Maybe your givens aren't really givens.

There is research that suggests that Americans are no more religious than frenchmen.

http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pa ... erica.html

I'm looking for the exact study, but a few years ago i read about one study where they searched the periodicals databases for studies that required people to keep and turn in life journals -- studies that had nothing to do with religiosity but wherein the subjects would report what they did on any given day during the term of the study - parsed out the number of times the subjects recorded in their journal that they attended religious services.

After applying statistical models, they discovered that although when you ask people straight up 40% of americans will tell you that they regularly attend religious services, it would appear that only a bit over 15% of americans actually regularly attend religious services.



MarketAndChurch
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23 Aug 2015, 2:27 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Maybe your givens aren't really givens.

There is research that suggests that Americans are no more religious than frenchmen.

http://www.churchleaders.com/pastors/pa ... erica.html

I'm looking for the exact study, but a few years ago i read about one study where they searched the periodicals databases for studies that required people to keep and turn in life journals -- studies that had nothing to do with religiosity but wherein the subjects would report what they did on any given day during the term of the study - parsed out the number of times the subjects recorded in their journal that they attended religious services.

After applying statistical models, they discovered that although when you ask people straight up 40% of americans will tell you that they regularly attend religious services, it would appear that only a bit over 15% of americans actually regularly attend religious services.


Religiosity isn't the same thing as being a believer in a God(s). Americans are a very spiritual people, we have spiritual genetics, and a general ethos of transcending physical reality. Even many of those who leave religion in America still believe in God, or then join other movements who have a different take on the matter, especially Eastern or Pagan philosophies. Something you just don't really see amongst Europeans, who tend to be more grounded in the sense that this is it, and that there's nothing more to this other then what we create in this physical material reality.

By the way, the French have the highest birthrate amongst their West European neighbors, and one of the highest in all of Europe. But I think, discounting the birthrate contributions of immigrants, that this is mostly ideological, owed to the desire to preserve and survive the French way of life. A desire that most other Europeans don't really have for themselves, sadly.

And church attendance has been declining amongst mainstream protestants for a long while. That's what happens when you don't know what the Old Testament was about, and Euro-Americanize the New Testament while de-Judaizing Jesus. It's also unavoidable considering the secular, often leftist themes that is entertained in most mainline churches.

And perhaps most importantly, it isn't difficult to imagine America following the same trajectory listed in that POV if it were to lose its presumption about the existence of a God(and the afterlife predicated on that), and follow the Democrats lead, in their desire to create a Norway, sandwiched between Mexico and Canada. The rest of the country is always 5 years behind California, and 10 years behind Europe. So it isn't difficult to imagine, that an America that doesn't believe in a God, will more then likely look like France or Germany.


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blauSamstag
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23 Aug 2015, 2:38 am

sounds awesome to me



glebel
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24 Aug 2015, 12:15 pm

This might sound good to you, but it doesn't to other people, such as myself. My ancestors left Europe because of religious persecution which was definitely tied in with the secular authorities ( France, England, the Rhineland ). The last thing I want to do is live in Europe, Jr. ! !!


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0_equals_true
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24 Aug 2015, 1:04 pm

glebel wrote:
This might sound good to you, but it doesn't to other people, such as myself. My ancestors left Europe because of religious persecution which was definitely tied in with the secular authorities ( France, England, the Rhineland ). The last thing I want to do is live in Europe, Jr. ! ! !


Do you know by whom though? I remember one American guy going on about how his ancestors escaped prosecution, and he showed disdain for the the British monarchy (I'm not a monarchist myself). I researched it and it turned out his ancestors were deported by Cromwell for fighting for James 1st.

He was right about the religious prosecution. However religious prosecution in Europe went in multiple directions.

Also many of these people came to America much like their European counterpart weren't all that tolerant, in fact many of them were pretty puritanical.

Many of the people who came to the new world were in fact opportunist rather than escaping prosecution. The Mayflower story is not that accurate.



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24 Aug 2015, 1:08 pm

This thread down to a T:

State an opinion as fact, then try to get people to convince you are right, even though you already think you are right.



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24 Aug 2015, 1:23 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
[size=120]So there. Heaven on earth. Big government, pacifism, multiculturalism, early retirement, secular ethics, death penalty, gun ownership, anti-smoking, liberal sexual standards, unarmed police, not reproducing children, immigration, non-interventionist foreign policy, I managed to weave it all in there lol, which was fun. L


So in other words you have incredibly inconsistent views, for someone who presents as "true path" religious conservative.

Why do you even think his has much to do with with your savour, why do you assume that his teachings would represent your particular sporadic political views, you believe make sense? Where your there?

You could argue that Jesus actually subverted the conservative aspect of the society he was living in. Particularly the Roman rule, and the local rule and customs.

First of all, big/authoritarian government was the traditional position of old conservative, they supported monarchy and theocracies traditionally.

The idea of small government was actually a classical Liberal idea, borrowed by Conservatives in the 19th century. Every since then they been making out this has always been this way.



glebel
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24 Aug 2015, 2:12 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
glebel wrote:
This might sound good to you, but it doesn't to other people, such as myself. My ancestors left Europe because of religious persecution which was definitely tied in with the secular authorities ( France, England, the Rhineland ). The last thing I want to do is live in Europe, Jr. ! ! !


Do you know by whom though? I remember one American guy going on about how his ancestors escaped prosecution, and he showed disdain for the the British monarchy (I'm not a monarchist myself). I researched it and it turned out his ancestors were deported by Cromwell for fighting for James 1st.

He was right about the religious prosecution. However religious prosecution in Europe went in multiple directions.

Also many of these people came to America much like their European counterpart weren't all that tolerant, in fact many of them were pretty puritanical.

Many of the people who came to the new world were in fact opportunist rather than escaping prosecution. The Mayflower story is not that accurate.

Actually, my ancestors came here quite early, and they were Puritan-Separatist, Rhineland Germans ( Reformed ), and a bunch of Huguenots. Yeah, I've got my 'Descended from Dissidents' creds. And for the most part, if you take a honest look at their overall attitude towards the World, it was " Leave us alone!". As a matter of fact, that still is pretty much the motto for my family.


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0_equals_true
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24 Aug 2015, 2:28 pm

Cromwell was a Puritan, he gave the Taliban a run for their money. He also killed many English as well as Scost and Irish.

Puritans are not tolerant by definition. Puritanism is not a positive concept, be it Christian or any other religion or culture.

Huguenots on the other hand a bit more reasonable protestant. The actually used England as a safe-haven from persecution, against Catholic France.



glebel
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24 Aug 2015, 2:52 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Cromwell was a Puritan, he gave the Taliban a run for their money. He also killed many English as well as Scot and Irish.

Puritans are not tolerant by definition. Puritanism is not a positive concept, be it Christian or any other religion or culture.

Huguenots on the other hand a bit more reasonable protestant. The actually used England as a safe-haven from persecution, against Catholic France.

Cromwell was a Puritan-Congregationalist. They were the majority that wanted to reform the Anglican Church. The Puritan-Separatists were a totally different group, who, as I said, wanted nothing to do with any other sect. And as far as the Huguenots go, Yes, some of my ancestors passed through England, but most went from Alsace to the Rhineland and then were displaced during the Thirty Years War and passed through the Netherlands to what is now New York. Others went from Wallonia and Picardy to the Netherlands, etc. But the majority went straight from Normandy, Brittany, and Poiteau to Acadie ( basically modern day Nova Scotia ). The story of the New World Dissenters is a complicated one that I have been studying for the past 20 years, and I have found that there is a lot of disinformation out there. There is much mythology from both points of view ( the older and the revisionist ) and you need to separate the wheat from the chaff. Essentially, if I don't see convincing documentation, I am sceptical .


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0_equals_true
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24 Aug 2015, 2:57 pm

Agreed.



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26 Aug 2015, 2:36 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
[size=120]Does not believing a God exists, inherently lead to the secular leftist environments we see in San Francisco, New York, throughout East Asia, and virtually all of Europe?


I'm a hard core atheist...
Don't call me a commie bastard... :mrgreen:

Are you forgetting where you are?
On a website dedicated to ultimate individuals?
I don't fancy your quest to pigeonhole us politically... ;)



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26 Aug 2015, 2:59 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
everything we do is built atop what are already a mountain of assumptions, and I think that getting to fundamental core assumptions at the root of it all, helps us to understand why people do what they do,


my theory of everything: everything acts to fulfill its self-interest

"Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism



The_Walrus
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26 Aug 2015, 4:56 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Does not believing a God exists, inherently lead to the secular leftist environments we see in San Francisco, New York, throughout East Asia, and virtually all of Europe?

No. See: China, Bhutan, Russia, Japan, North Korea. Very different societies to each other, and very different to Britain, Canada and California (which are also different from each other).

There are some ways in which secularism pulls nations to the "left". Hell, secularism and freedom of religion are leftist values. Non-religious people also don't need to care about pointless moral rules like anti-abortion stances or "body as a temple" things, which again are generally associated with the left.



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26 Aug 2015, 5:22 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

my theory of everything: everything acts to fulfill its self-interest

"Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism


There was a case study of an altruistic person...
What gave him joy was to give to others...
There came a day where he had nothing more to give...
And he then committed suicide...

His "selfishness" involved his desire/need to be "unselfish"...
What an irony...
What a tragedy...