Do you have a red flag list?

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In this book the premise is that the type of behavior you describe happens after 'the switch', for example getting engaged, married, having children, a point where the verbally abusive person feels like they have irreversibly secured the relationship.
So how can you recognise this potential in a person?

I think in terms of what the book talks about, it would be more important to find out about their background, than who they are "now" per se...what kind of upbringing they had, what their family was/is like and so on. The basic premise is that these men are prone to becoming abusive because they were brought up to deny so much of themselves, their natural feelings and emotions and even physical sensations like pain. They were told to toughen up, don't be a girl/wuss/fag, etc.

In general they were brought up not to be "feminine" (whatever traits were considered feminine) so they have a lot of unlived, unexpressed, unactualized parts of themselves they don't have an outlet for. And because of this, they feel they need a partner to live out for them, quite literally, the other half of themselves that they are unable to express and actualize.

I think a lot of this goes back to what wilburforce was saying earlier in the thread, about people who have outmoded or toxic ideas about gender...I guess the real caveat though is that it's not always apparent what people really believe about gender. Especially in terms of what the book is talking about - a man who was brought up to deny his real self and his real emotions will have a carefully cultivated persona (which is dropped very suddenly when "the switch" happens.) Part of that persona might be that he respects women and believes in gender equality...but under the surface, he may have rigid ideas about gender, what a man is supposed to be, what a woman is supposed to be.

This is true. A lot of people will make an effort to sound PC because they know that is what is acceptable, but not because they actually believe being sensitive and decent to others is the right way to be. Anyone who complains about "PC police" or that "PC culture has run rampant" etc. is suspect to me for that reason. I mean, if you have that much of a problem just learning how to talk to others with decency without getting called out by "PC police" then you're probably an as*hole. I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who complained about such stuff who wasn't actually a bigot and just wanted to be able to say bigoted things openly without getting called on it.

So if there isn't a specific red flag, really it is trial and error, paying heed to hints of outdated gender notions as it isn't possible to be certain how the childhood environment will have impacted on the real self.

You know what...I've been trying to figure out how one would possibly identify this problem before getting in deep enough to risk allowing it to happen. But honestly I can't quite imagine it, because I've never had any relationship be all that "normal" to begin with.

The prospect of not finding out how abusive someone can be, until you're already married, is really scary and depressing to me.

Yes it is scary. A fear of this happening could warp a persons perception of others.

Maybe the rigidness mentioned earlier, or a lack of desire to grow/make self improvements, or reflect and make changes, could be a red flag.

Yes. I think you are right on with that. And some say this is a major red flag for narcissism, when they don't see any reason to change or grow as a person.

I guess the biggest red flag to me, in connection with that, would be someone who denies the impact that their actions have on other people. Someone who lacks accountability, never says they are sorry, never expresses any regrets.

Man reading some of these last comments makes me wonder if my first boyfriend was also a narcissist. He seemed to be into himself more he thought other people had a problem if they didn't want to do it. He also liked to joke and tease around and he refused to cut it out with me and he would also swear and wouldn't stop and didn't care if it embarrassed me. He would also complain about how others judge him and don't accept him but he was just an as*hole because he wouldn't change his behavior to accommodate others and to adjust for them. He was literally true to himself. of course he had told me from the beginning that he will not change and he wants to be accepted for who he is. I thought he meant like what his likes and dislikes are, what his views are, what he wears, what his interests are. I didn't know it meant he was going to be an as*hole so anything he does that hurts my feelings or frustrates me I have to deal with it because he won't change, it's who he is.

I also wondered if he was a sociopath because he was a bum and he didn't want to work and he thought everything was "ret*d" and he didn't like to pay for rent or food or gas and thought everything should be handed to us and he hated money. I was his meal ticket and he managed to get himself fired and then he wouldn't apply for other jobs. He always had excuses for everything too and he didn't want to help himself. Both my parents think he was nuts, crazy and m mom said he had more problems than ADHD. She thought he had some mental illness because of the way he functioned and thought. She thought he might have had some schizophrenia because of the way he talked and used his hands and he had these bizarre beliefs. But yet when we first met, he was motivated to work but that all changed.

My mom thinks he might not have been capable to care about other peoples and their feelings. Then of course when I dumped him, he blamed it all on me and he was calling himself a screw up but yet he had no intention to change so that confused me. He also told me how he thought I would accept him for who he is so I told him if him being who he is is him being lazy, not wanting to work, not wanting to help himself, then I don't like it and he came back and blamed it all on me saying he had faults and everyone has faults and he made it sound like I was the bad guy or something and wanted everything my way and to be perfect and it all has to be my way or the highway. Talk about projection. I was pissed but I didn't argue it, I was just speechless. I was like "oh my god, I can't even" and he just didn't get it and that is like saying being an as*hole is a human fault. What about someone that likes to beat their partners for control, is that a human fault? Is narcissism a human fault? GMAB. I rthought a human fault is more like not picking up your dirty clothes or leaving the toilet seat up or not putting your plate in the sink. These petty things.

^I have often wondered about my ex because the traits he had all fell into the cluster B disorder categories.

When my role as the breadwinner ended and became his role (after I put him through a BSc and a MSc because he was made redundant due to the recession) and I was unemployed due to geographical reasons 'the switch' was a traumatic experience for me.

Beware of any boyfriend who tries to isolate you from your family - he is seeking total autonomy over you by taking away your best "safety net". Asking you several times a day who you have talked to, texted, emailed, or otherwise conversed with is another Red Flag. Insisting on to sharing your email account, cell phone, and/or mailing address is another Red Flag.

It's all about separating you from the protection and support of others in order to make you totally dependent on him for everything from income to self-esteem.

Ugh, my second ex again minus wanting to share my accounts. I think this is also why he ghosted me, I couldn't do what he wanted and he couldn't isolate me from my parents because I would wait when he wasn't around to talk to them. I was pretty smart. He could have taken my phone but then it would have been too obvious and he "didn't" want to be a control freak. Instead he made it look like he was very worried that I was making him look bad and he cared too much what my parents would think of him and I thought instead he was paranoid so that backfired on him. So I started to do it when he wasn't around so he wouldn't have to worry. No wonder he discarded me.

Thank you for introducing this concept of "the switch". I've always read that abuse escalates slowly, but that idea conflicts with what I experienced in my first marriage. We dated for five years with no physical abuse. Then, within a couple months of the wedding, he nearly strangled me to death. That was his "switch". 0 to 100 in an instant.

What an awful experience for you Yippy, you must have been so frightened, and hurt.

I too am glad that Dianthus posted about "the switch", though it is becoming more obvious to me that there were many signs that I did not recognise as red flags.

The Author also defines abuse as reoccurring, which I was familiar with, but this context was mostly unknown to me before now:
Source
If a person grows up being told they are wrong, and accepts that they are just wrong in general, then they are more susceptible to being with partners who want to customize them, I think.

This. Memorize that list, and if you even THINK their behaviors are on it, don't let the relationship go any farther until you've gotten to the bottom of that. "Reasons in their past" doesn't make it OK-- most abusers have reasons in their past. "Reasons in your past" doesn't make it OK either, unless maybe (maybe) it was your past actions towards them.

I have a couple more.

1) PC language. Everyone who's ever tried to harm me or screw me over post-childhood has been very careful to be politically correct while doing so.

2) Men who carry on about how feminist they are. It has been my experience that most of them actually hate and fear women. They are trying to suck up to what they see as an enemy with the upper hand and, in their wormy little hearts, want a submissive woman so much that they will belittle and break a strong-willed woman until nothing but a doormat remains. Not only do most "feminist men" actually want a submissive woman-- they have no idea of how to be a dominant (as opposed to a domineering) man, and do not understand that dominance comes with a lot more responsibilities than privileges. Feminist men, in my opinion, become manipulative dictators once they're secure enough in your need for them (like, once you're dependent on them or once there is a child that can be used against you) to turn the tables.

Oh, and-- I reiterate: MEET THEIR PARENTS!! !!

As soon as possible, MEET THEIR PARENTS!! !!

Before you share a mailbox, MEET THEIR PARENTS!! !!

Before you start getting attached, MEET THEIR PARENTS!! !!

If you think their dad's a dick, or if he seems like he's being super-nice but you smell dick potential (the best way I know to describe it is a strong feeling of being on your guard, or a strong sense that your BF is on his guard, or a stronger-than-usual feeling that you should speak as little as possible), RUN.

Especially with young guys-- even if they don't resemble their father behaviorally now, they will later. Believe me, they will later.

If you can't envision yourself in his mother's (metaphoric) shoes, RUN. Because, if you marry him, those are the shoes someone will try to shoehorn you into.

I have met my ex boyfriend's parents and his grandparents and other family during Christmas dinner and that did s**t for me. He was still the way he was. Some narcissists get along with their family fine and other people they work with which is why I didn't think he was bad. I must have forgotten about Disney Villains and Gaston. But his mother was Bipolar and his whole family seemed fine. His mom would have a few episodes here and there. She would just all of a sudden explode and start screaming at her husband. But my ex really loved his family and his grandparents were very supportive of him. Because some abusers get along with their families well, the abused wouldn't even know they are in a abusive relationship because if their partner has so many friends or gets along with their family, then there must not be a problem with their partner and it had to be them. But it seems like some narcissists have switches and they can turn it on anytime they want and turn it off. It comes and goes so it only shows up in relationships but not around anyone else.

Oh well every abuser is different and not all of them are estranged from their families or don't get along well with them. But I wonder if his mother's Bipolar should have been a red flag or how dysfunctional his family life was as a kid because they moved a lot because his parents were poor so they got evicted a lot so that was a bunch of schools he went to. Also how he told me how his mother gave up on him and left it all to the school system to figure him out and how to help him and how his regular father supposedly killed himself and how abusive his step father was because he would pin a dirty diaper to him during potty training to shame him so no one wouldn't want to hold him or want him near them.I think his mom was 15 when she had him or 17. But she was in her 50's when I knew her and she had him when she was in her teens. I wonder if this should have been a red flag?

But my other ex, his relatives didn't want him around. They would have never let him stay with them if both his parents had moved. I guess it can be a red flag if no in their family wants them around or if they can't get along with them. But there are some people who come from dysfunctional families and they are not abusive. But if they refuse to cut them out of their lives, that can be very difficult for the partner who is dating them. Especially if you have a in law who is abusive and is still dominating her child and your partner is too weak to stand up to her and live his own life. Momma's boy I think we call it.





This describes him. But he claimed to be a feminist but he was very hateful. He told he felt feminine though and how he feels he was meant to be a woman and was born in the wrong body. He also hated his body hair so shaved it. I also felt he was controlling even though he said he didn't want to be one and I totally listened to his words and ignored my gut instinct and his actions always contradicted his words. I do believe he intentionally did things to control me and to keep me from getting a job. Looking at my personality and what kind of person I am and how I need support to move forward, he didn't give me any of it so all he had to do was not fix my car and he told me how unsafe it is to take buses because I am naive and men can pick up on it and they can hurt me. He also told me downtown was unsafe. He also knew I had money anxiety and I was saving it to use to look for a job so he would tell me we could always take my car to the shop and have it fixed and he would remind me how much money it would be. That always shut me up and I think that was his attempt to manipulate me to make it look genuine even though he had promised to fix it but whenever I brought it up, he would get defensive and say "We could always call for a tow truck and have it towed to the shop and it would be about (insert cost here) to fix it" and I would be like "no no."

But my parents did tell me to stay in Montana and have my car fixed there but I was so eager to move to be with my ex and he had said he would fix my car and he had told me before I could use his car to find work while he is at home sleeping. That didn't happen. I also had a spare key to his apartment so that made me think he wasn't controlling and he wasn't keeping me from getting a job.

But he didn't last long because once I was with my aunt and uncle he talked to me less. I had become useless for him and I think he was slowing withdrawing and had excuses before he ghosted but yet he agreed that it was better if I live with my aunt and uncle instead when we were moving out of his apartment. These people are so confusing. I don't even understand their motives or what their intentions are. That is what narcissists are. They do strange things.

My mom thinks he wanted my money because I was on SSI but I was only getting $115 a month then because some lady in Missoula didn't put my pay stubs in the computer so I was getting that little money because of it. So I can't see why he would want my money if I was getting very little and I didn't have a job. I do remember he wanted me to spend my other money I had saved and because I wouldn't spend it on entertainment, I didn't manage my money well according to him. I thought you were only supposed to use it for bills and necessities when you are jobless. Not go out to eat or movies and buy stuff you don't even need.

But he might have hated women because he told me lot of men hate women because women can just say to the judge they are being abused or got raped and bam the guy goes to jail and he told me I could tell the judge he beat me and bam he would be in jail. I had no idea then this was projection and this was how he felt and he was saying this was how lot of men feel. My mother could have also been right about this too.

But covert narcissists are so hard to spot until you read about it. Then you realize this is what they were. However, if you read about narcissism, you won't see your partner in it because covert narcissism is a different form so you won't even think your partner is one and you would think they are just normal people and you wouldn't understand why you are so depressed or why you are going crazy or acting the way you are. I find it ironic that my ex said I was playing games but I find out he was the one who was playing. He said he didn't like people playing them but yet he would play them himself.