Effeminate men, testosterone and Autism

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Dillogic
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12 Jan 2016, 2:51 am

People with autism generally exhibit extreme male behavior (all the symptoms are pretty much normal male behavior to an extreme and disabling extent)

low empathy
social isolation (often by choice)
extreme focus
lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it
aggressiveness/combativeness
needing structure/needing order
independence of thought/not seeing social classes
and whatnot

are all typical male rather than female, behaviors

You'll find females with an ASD are close to males with these behaviors too.

Asperger noted it. As have others after him.



ImAnAspie
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12 Jan 2016, 3:46 am

Dillogic wrote:
People with autism generally exhibit extreme male behavior (all the symptoms are pretty much normal male behavior to an extreme and disabling extent)

low empathy
social isolation (often by choice)
extreme focus
lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it
aggressiveness/combativeness
needing structure/needing order
independence of thought/not seeing social classes
and whatnot

are all typical male rather than female, behaviors

You'll find females with an ASD are close to males with these behaviors too.

Asperger noted it. As have others after him.



HANG ON A BLOODY SECOND.

THAT'S A RATHER OVER-GENERALIZED, SWEEPING STATEMENT!

low empathy : DON'T THINK SO
social isolation (often by choice) : GUILTY AS CHARGED
extreme focus : GUILTY AS CHARGED
lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it : GUILTY AS CHARGED
aggressiveness/combativeness : NOT GUILTY YOUR HONOR
needing structure/needing order : GUILTY AS CHARGED
independence of thought/not seeing social classes and whatnot : GUILTY AS CHARGED


Actually, you may be right. Except the aggressiveness bit.

Oh, hang on. I'm being a bit aggressive now, aren't I?!?!

YOU WIN!


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Misery
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12 Jan 2016, 3:59 am

Dillogic wrote:
People with autism generally exhibit extreme male behavior (all the symptoms are pretty much normal male behavior to an extreme and disabling extent)

low empathy
social isolation (often by choice)
extreme focus
lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it
aggressiveness/combativeness
needing structure/needing order
independence of thought/not seeing social classes
and whatnot

are all typical male rather than female, behaviors

You'll find females with an ASD are close to males with these behaviors too.

Asperger noted it. As have others after him.


Hmm, I'll respond to this one as well:

low empathy: Nope. I tend to feel everyone else's pain/moods; it's one of the things that leads to me not interacting much. Too much pain in some situations...

social isolation (often by choice): Sorta depends on the context and where I am. Sometimes true, sometimes not. Some places/situations are just oppressive, but there's some where everything is fine.

extreme focus: Good grief no. I cant focus on things at all. Never could. Too spacey and I've a limited attention span anyway.

lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it: I'll do it sometimes. I know WHY it's there, even if I'd rather talk about more interesting things, it doesnt really bug me.

aggressiveness/combativeness: In gaming, yes. IRL, I'm extremely passive and tend to be afraid of things.

needing structure/needing order: Not remotely. I definitely rate as "chaotic". You should see my room. Or anywhere I am. Hotel rooms are the worst, typically I've destroyed them after one night. Not on purpose, mind you, it just happens. And that's just the start.

independence of thought/not seeing social classes: Oh, I see them, it's just that in some cases I dont like them. It depends.



zkydz
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12 Jan 2016, 9:14 am

Dillogic wrote:
People with autism generally exhibit extreme male behavior (all the symptoms are pretty much normal male behavior to an extreme and disabling extent)

low empathy
social isolation (often by choice)
extreme focus
lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it
aggressiveness/combativeness
needing structure/needing order
independence of thought/not seeing social classes
and whatnot

are all typical male rather than female, behaviors

You'll find females with an ASD are close to males with these behaviors too.

Asperger noted it. As have others after him.
Huh...sounds like it came right out of some overgeneralized list of things.

Most women I know require and impose more structure than the men I know.

I have yet to find a barometer that shows women are more empathetic. In fact, given the right circumstances, they can be just as mean and vindictive, even more so in the way revenge is exacted....that is very aggressive and quite frankly, a lot of women I have worked around and worked with are very aggressive in their competition for queen bee. Just a different type of aggression, but aggression nonetheless. And, I am the biggest wuss around unless I feel threatened.

Social Isolation depends on many factors. I have not seen any pattern there.

Most women today are the most 'independence of thought' I have ever encountered. They are for some reason, still by and large socially aware, but not really always able to navigate it better than anyone else.

Asperger noted it, but be real, that was in the 1930's. Those were very different times and assigned gender roles were much more prevalent and rigid. The women who did not fit that mold were made to fit that mold (just as men were), so, ideas of 'male and female' roles were much different and mostly filtered through that prism.

The idea that men are more aggressive is a false equivalency. It gets to the old problem of which is more violent; a slap/punch or betrayal/humiliation on the highest level.

I find both abhorrent, but provided you didn't get a haymaker, at least you can recover from something physical quickly but a betrayal can cripple you emotionally for life or at least scar you deeper and have more lasting consequences.
So, with that in mind, I find the betrayal to be more aggressive as it usually requires thought and planning and lack of care. And, usually done right in front of you.

Kinda reminds me of the Psychiatrist I saw once that tried to turn everything I said into else.

Him: "You must feel anger"
Me: No, but very frustrated
Him: Frustration is anger

So, yeah...not so sure that's a good list to swear by......


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Adam_K93
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12 Jan 2016, 9:32 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Are you actually in Phnom Penh?


Yes, I live here. I am Cambodian-American.


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zkydz
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12 Jan 2016, 9:34 am

Adam_K93 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Are you actually in Phnom Penh?


Yes, I live here. I am Cambodian-American.

If you are there, wouldn't that make you American-Cambodian?


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Austinfrom1995
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12 Jan 2016, 11:16 am

Um, that's, as others have said, a generalization, and does not represent an example of the Aspie community. For me at least:

low empathy-No, I am VERY sensitive to the emotions of others.
social isolation (often by choice)-Ok, I agree I do this.
extreme focus- Not really.
lack of interest in small talk/doesn't see the need for it-Ya, I don't care for small talk at all.
aggressiveness/combativeness-Nope, I am not aggressive or combative in the least. Ironic, because I do have intrest in War themes.
needing structure/needing order-No, I am quite happy without others around.
independence of thought/not seeing social classes-Yup, this in spades.
and whatnot

Total score of sweeping generalizations: 3/7


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zkydz
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12 Jan 2016, 12:21 pm

Austinfrom1995 wrote:
aggressiveness/combativeness-Nope, I am not aggressive or combative in the least. Ironic, because I do have intrest in War themes.
Some of the most passive people I know study these things. I see no incongruences there.

Austinfrom1995 wrote:
needing structure/needing order-No, I am quite happy without others around.
Not sure how having people around equates to structure. I love being alone. But I am quite structured and planned out as to what I want to do and have my own system of orderliness that I have to follow. As a matter of fact, I find having people around really messes with my structure and orderliness.

So, not really following that one.....sorry......


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Austinfrom1995
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12 Jan 2016, 12:25 pm

zkydz wrote:
Austinfrom1995 wrote:
aggressiveness/combativeness-Nope, I am not aggressive or combative in the least. Ironic, because I do have intrest in War themes.
Some of the most passive people I know study these things. I see no incongruences there.

Austinfrom1995 wrote:
needing structure/needing order-No, I am quite happy without others around.
Not sure how having people around equates to structure. I love being alone. But I am quite structured and planned out as to what I want to do and have my own system of orderliness that I have to follow. As a matter of fact, I find having people around really messes with my structure and orderliness.

So, not really following that one.....sorry......


Sorry, I misread "order" as "others". :oops: Just ignore that one.


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zkydz
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12 Jan 2016, 12:32 pm

Austinfrom1995 wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Austinfrom1995 wrote:
aggressiveness/combativeness-Nope, I am not aggressive or combative in the least. Ironic, because I do have intrest in War themes.
Some of the most passive people I know study these things. I see no incongruences there.

Austinfrom1995 wrote:
needing structure/needing order-No, I am quite happy without others around.
Not sure how having people around equates to structure. I love being alone. But I am quite structured and planned out as to what I want to do and have my own system of orderliness that I have to follow. As a matter of fact, I find having people around really messes with my structure and orderliness.

So, not really following that one.....sorry......


Sorry, I misread "order" as "others". :oops: Just ignore that one.

Hahaha...I do that too. Thanks for clarifying for me...... But, that means you hit above the 50% threshold at 4 out of 7.

Neener, Neener....(Stephen Hawking from guest appearance on Big Bang Theory...yes, I heard it years and years ago, but his was the funniest)


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Austinfrom1995
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12 Jan 2016, 12:39 pm

zkydz wrote:
Austinfrom1995 wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Austinfrom1995 wrote:
aggressiveness/combativeness-Nope, I am not aggressive or combative in the least. Ironic, because I do have intrest in War themes.
Some of the most passive people I know study these things. I see no incongruences there.

Austinfrom1995 wrote:
needing structure/needing order-No, I am quite happy without others around.
Not sure how having people around equates to structure. I love being alone. But I am quite structured and planned out as to what I want to do and have my own system of orderliness that I have to follow. As a matter of fact, I find having people around really messes with my structure and orderliness.

So, not really following that one.....sorry......


Sorry, I misread "order" as "others". :oops: Just ignore that one.

Hahaha...I do that too. Thanks for clarifying for me...... But, that means you hit above the 50% threshold at 4 out of 7.

Neener, Neener....(Stephen Hawking from guest appearance on Big Bang Theory...yes, I heard it years and years ago, but his was the funniest)


Your welcome. :D


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Dillogic
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12 Jan 2016, 7:08 pm

zkydz wrote:
Huh...sounds like it came right out of some overgeneralized list of things.


Well, if you consider Hans Asperger, Lorna Wing, Baron-Cohen and other experts to be overgeneralized, then yeah, they are.



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12 Jan 2016, 7:55 pm

Dillogic wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Huh...sounds like it came right out of some overgeneralized list of things.


Well, if you consider Hans Asperger, Lorna Wing, Baron-Cohen and other experts to be overgeneralized, then yeah, they are.

Yeah, let's take the quote out of context, so let me go full Aspie on you....

The people are not overly generalized in their thinking of concepts, but their built in preconceptions based on societal norms, gender differences and other things were based on a hierarchy of, what today would be ludicrous, a very overgeneralized set of 'behaviours' that were expected to apply for everybody. Men were aggressors...I call BS on that because when I've never seen a man rip into another man the way a woman will. And I call BS on the notion that women need to be protected is outdated as well because they are passive. I've seen men that were far more maternal than women and women far more logical than men.

So, yes, I stand by the list as overgeneralized. To lump the names with the societal standards of the time is a false equivalency at best. I took nothing from those people, but, I did put their norms into a proper historical perspective and then stated quite simply the list is overgeneralized.

That same rationale is also the same rationale of basic evolution and even the experts agree that the societal norms and definitions, though laying a groundwork that was truly astounding, do not apply to today. The only thing I did not do was state, "By today's standards". But, I thought that would be implied since I am speaking in the present tense and always take care to separate past, present and future.


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12 Jan 2016, 8:00 pm

zkydz wrote:
Adam_K93 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Are you actually in Phnom Penh?


Yes, I live here. I am Cambodian-American.

If you are there, wouldn't that make you American-Cambodian?


I don't know the proper English term (I've lived in Asia most my life), but everyone calls me Cambodian American, both here and in America.


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zkydz
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12 Jan 2016, 8:07 pm

Adam_K93 wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Adam_K93 wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Are you actually in Phnom Penh?


Yes, I live here. I am Cambodian-American.

If you are there, wouldn't that make you American-Cambodian?


I don't know the proper English term (I've lived in Asia most my life), but everyone calls me Cambodian American, both here and in America.
I'm sorry. I was making a lame joke on all the damned hyphenization going on here. At some point, you're either American or you're not. I understand wanting to hold cultural traditions, but, wow..........

At any rate, my bad on that......


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Dillogic
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12 Jan 2016, 8:44 pm

zkydz wrote:
Men were aggressors...I call BS on that because when I've never seen a man rip into another man the way a woman will. And I call BS on the notion that women need to be protected is outdated as well because they are passive. I've seen men that were far more maternal than women and women far more logical than men.

So, yes, I stand by the list as overgeneralized. To lump the names with the societal standards of the time is a false equivalency at best. I took nothing from those people, but, I did put their norms into a proper historical perspective and then stated quite simply the list is overgeneralized.

That same rationale is also the same rationale of basic evolution and even the experts agree that the societal norms and definitions, though laying a groundwork that was truly astounding, do not apply to today.


Your personal anecdotes in regards to behavior don't count here.

Men are more aggressive and combative due to chemical reasons. You'll note I don't list "logical" and "women need protecting", though the latter may have an evolutionary reason for why humans do such; women make the babies, and that needs protecting, especially when men are markedly better warriors (this isn't as important in the age of firearms and bombs, of course, and it goes with what you say about historical context). What I listed are things that can be objectively shown to be more pronounced in males. This is why females with an ASD often appear more sociable; they tend to partake in small talk more than males with an ASD, and they're also far less aggressive (albeit, they'll blow up during a meltdown or unexpected change, but they won't lash out as frequently--this is one reason many females are missed. They have good behavior, and since intelligence is there, their schoolwork usually isn't worse than their peers without an ASD).

"False equivalency" is being used wrong here. Those names (especially the first two) defined the symptoms of AS, and they're still defined in the same way today; saying that's outdated, and not taking anything from them, is saying you're making up your own definition of AS for all intents. It doesn't work that way with medical conditions that others diagnose us with.

Yes, many behaviors we attribute to "male" or "female" are based in culture. Many aren't, however, and these are the ones you can measure by objective tests that are unrelated to culture.