Effeminate men, testosterone and Autism

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Dillogic
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13 Jan 2016, 9:40 pm

Just search for "Extreme Male Brain Autism"; there's plenty of articles and studies freely available, and it was put forward by Simon Baron-Cohen based on Hans Asperger's observation that:

Quote:
"The autistic personality is an extreme variant of male intelligence. ... In the autistic individual, the male pattern is exaggerated to the extreme."


This is in relation to the social isolation, the lack of small talk, and the focused mind; things we call "male intelligence".

For say, aggression, Attwood put this (which is pretty much what I recalled; I disagree with him in that it's obvious to me why this is, and you don't even need to look for studies that show men are more overtly aggressive by utilizing physical violence, and it's distinct from culture); Asperger noted the increased aggression too:

Quote:
We have a stereotype of typical female and male behaviour. Girls are more able to verbalise their emotions and less likely to use physically aggressive acts in response to negative emotions such as confusion, frustration and anger. We do not know whether this is a cultural or constitutional characteristic but we recognise that children who are aggressive are more likely to be referred for a diagnostic assessment to determine whether the behaviour is due to a specific developmental disorder and for advice on behaviour management. Hence boys with Asperger’s Syndrome are more often referred to a psychologists or psychiatrist because their aggression has become a concern for their parents or schoolteacher. A consequence of this referral bias is that not only are more boys referred, clinicians and academics can have a false impression of the incidence of aggression in this population. ... However, some are reluctant to socialise with others and their personality can be described as passive. They can become quite adept at camouflaging their difficulties and clinical experience suggests that the passive personality is more common in girls.


Of course, the increased aggression can be due to the symptoms themselves, and you can say normal people would respond the same way if given the same challenges. This makes sense. Though, that males lash out more physically, is a trait of being male. So, a bit of both makes the most sense--whether the challenges are making the extreme male aggression or it's brain differences in those with autism, well, I don't think they've done a study on that yet.



Last edited by Dillogic on 13 Jan 2016, 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

zkydz
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13 Jan 2016, 9:55 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Just search for ......
Not doing your work for you. Until you pony up, this engagement is over.


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Dillogic
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zkydz
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13 Jan 2016, 10:19 pm

And refutation. See, wasn't that easy?
https://spectrumnews.org/news/study-on- ... s-critics/

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/ ... tudy-finds

Basically the study is flawed.


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Dillogic
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13 Jan 2016, 10:32 pm

zkydz wrote:


Of course there's going to be refutations.

The first one doesn't really refute anything, as they're saying people with an ASD can have empathy; Cohen doesn't say they don't in the way it's defined there. Also, that the outcomes are based on cultural or social differences rather than biological--this is hard to show, as most cultures across the world will show say, men are more physically aggressive and will score less on empathy tests. If all cultures show the same thing, then it's probably biological.

Your second link is based on structures of the brain, rather than studies on behaviors.

So, no, it's not "flawed". It's flawed if the data is wrong. No one has said the data is wrong. Now, the data can be interpreted differently, say males do this because of culture, but you have to show that.



zkydz
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13 Jan 2016, 10:43 pm

And that's the point. There are refutations. Each one of us is backed by a study. As for one of them not directly refuting the study, see it as you will.

But your insistence to just believe without really observing things for yourself is just amazing. It is its own form of gender bias.

The most glaring thing that you have chosen to overlook that the largest and most consistent observation of all critics that the study did not get into histories of the individuals (Internet survey.....yeah....that's a real source of factual information) and did not account for social conditioning. And, it's basically a rehash of a theory that has not really gained traction in ten years primarily for the reasons of not taking into account such things as upbringing and social conditioning.

The study is flawed.


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Dillogic
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13 Jan 2016, 11:00 pm

Which is what I said. Social reasons could very well be the "why", and females might say, show more of this "EMB" due to not acknowledging the social norms. Albeit, men have always been more physically aggressive on average; it's always been that way across the world and time.

I'm not believing it blindly; I think it explains much, and it makes a lot of sense. There's no problems with the data that I can see.

Personally, I think it's just early brain damage that affects multiple behavioral areas, and since humans are fairly cut and dry in behavior across the two sexes, you end up with what Cohen has found. Intense world theory can explain the sensory stuff. ED theory can explain problems with initiating actions, crossing thresholds, and adapting to change, for example.

But nonetheless, the premise of this thread is speaking of effeminate men and autism. Cohen has shown that males with autism aren't on average effeminate based on typical male behaviors, no matter the reasons for those behaviors (biological or social).

Someone can step in and show objectively that males with autism are more effeminate if they like.



Dillogic
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13 Jan 2016, 11:08 pm

Here's an interesting one:

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/201/2/116

Quote:
Women with ASD had higher total and bioactive testosterone levels, less feminine facial features and a larger head circumference than female controls. Men in the ASD group were assessed as having less masculine body characteristics and voice quality, and displayed higher (i.e. less masculine) 2D:4D ratios, but similar testosterone levels to controls. Androgynous facial features correlated strongly and positively with autistic traits measured with the Autism-Spectrum Quotient in the total sample. In males and females with ASD dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate did not decrease with age, in contrast to the control group.


It seems that by this, autism makes physical features closer to "neutral". Men appear less male; women appear less female. This isn't behavior, however, but physical features are quite an important facet to what people think of when they see male and female.



zkydz
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13 Jan 2016, 11:09 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Which is what I said. Social reasons could very well be the "why", and females might say, show more of this "EMB" due to not acknowledging the social norms. Albeit, men have always been more physically aggressive on average; it's always been that way across the world and time.

You really don't see the irony of stating social reasons and then in the next sentence counter that by stating a cherry picked idea that "Albeit, men have always been more physically aggressive on average; it's always been that way across the world and time."?

Dillogic wrote:
It seems that by this, autism makes physical features closer to "neutral". Men appear less male; women appear less female. This isn't behavior, however, but physical features are quite an important facet to what people think of when they see male and female.


And with this your back to victorian phrenology and its use to deride other races as inferior and incapable of being intelligent.


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Dillogic
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13 Jan 2016, 11:26 pm

zkydz wrote:
You really don't see the irony of stating social reasons and then in the next sentence counter that by stating a cherry picked idea that "Albeit, men have always been more physically aggressive on average; it's always been that way across the world and time."?

And with this your back to victorian phrenology and its use to deride other races as inferior and incapable of being intelligent.


That's just an example of male behavior that is counter to my initial claim. To get a working hypothesis, a consensus is needed with your evidence (well, it at least makes it a lot easier).

What do you mean? That is just showing physical differences in those with autism. There's no attachment of worth or value there. If studies show females with autism look more male, then there we are.

If you have a problem with that study, and it's somehow racist or sexist, you can let the authors know.

It seems like you are the one here with bias, as these studies aren't fitting your belief. The point of science is to acknowledge and accept this. Correct me if I'm wrong, and you've brought this up twice now to the studies of professionals in the field (both of which point in different directions).



Yigeren
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13 Jan 2016, 11:39 pm

Hmm. I think both sides have a point. I think extreme male brain theory makes sense for some people and not others. I think once we discover all the different forms of autism, we'll discover the various causes, and they won't all be from the extreme male brain.

Sex differentiation of the brain and gender is really just a spectrum. There are averages, like a bell curve, that most people fall into. That's where some gender stereotypes come from. Obviously, a lot of people don't fit so neatly into these categories.

Some people are more in the middle, as far as gender personality, and some are on the other side completely from their biological sex. I don't think we fully understand why yet.

I have noticed many aspies of both sexes don't fit gender stereotypes, and I think this goes against the extreme male brain theory. Many seem to be androgynous and some are transgendered. If the extreme male brain theory really applied to everyone, you'd think most aspies of both sexes would feel/act more masculine, which isn't the case.

I myself have a way of thinking that is probably more in the middle of the gender spectrum. But my appearance and mannerisms are very feminine.

Men and women are different, but stereotypes are just stereotypes. So one can't truthfully say all men are aggressive and all women passive, for instance.

I have no research to back this up, only things I've read over the years and my observations :)



zkydz
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13 Jan 2016, 11:41 pm

Yigeren wrote:
Hmm. I think both sides have a point. I think extreme male brain theory makes sense for some people and not others. I think once we discover all the different forms of autism, we'll discover the various causes, and they won't all be from the extreme male brain.

Sex differentiation of the brain and gender is really just a spectrum. There are averages, like a bell curve, that most people fall into. That's where some gender stereotypes come from. Obviously, a lot of people don't fit so neatly into these categories.

Some people are more in the middle, as far as gender personality, and some are on the other side completely from their biological sex. I don't think we fully understand why yet.

I have noticed many aspies of both sexes don't fit gender stereotypes, and I think this goes against the extreme male brain theory. Many seem to be androgynous and some are transgendered. If the extreme male brain theory really applied to everyone, you'd think most aspies of both sexes would feel/act more masculine, which isn't the case.

I myself have a way of thinking that is probably more in the middle of the gender spectrum. But my appearance and mannerisms are very feminine.

Men and women are different, but stereotypes are just stereotypes. So one can't truthfully say all men are aggressive and all women passive, for instance.

I have no research to back this up, only things I've read over the years and my observations :)
Very well put. Especially the reasoning behind the statements. I applaud the logic and thought behind it. Bravo!!


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