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kraftiekortie
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14 Jan 2016, 9:52 pm

Asperger's is still in the ICD-10, which is sometimes used in the US, believe it or not.



dcj123
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14 Jan 2016, 9:58 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
...ICD-10...


Its OCD with ice cream times 10!

Sorry I am having a moment here, thanks, I didn't know that



Dillogic
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14 Jan 2016, 9:58 pm

I had seizures after the first of the MMR needles, so they didn't continue with the vaccines.

I ended up getting measles as a teenager too. Heh.

Diagnosed AS with Gillberg's Criteria and AD with the DSM-IV-TR.



BrainPower101
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14 Jan 2016, 10:22 pm

Si_82 wrote:
BrainPower101 wrote:
I'm trying to be fair and unbiased.


OK, great! So let's take you at your word and assume that if you are given clear compelling evidence this autism vaccine link argument is based on lies, then you would accept that and decide that the link is not real?

Fair assumption?


I don't know what you're getting at here.



beneficii
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14 Jan 2016, 11:31 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Asperger's is still in the ICD-10, which is sometimes used in the US, believe it or not.


It looks, though, like they're going to get rid of it in the ICD-11, and do the same thing as the DSM-5 did: Collapse all the ASD diagnoses into a single autism spectrum disorder diagnosis.


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Lockheart
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15 Jan 2016, 8:12 am

BrainPower101 wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Any link between Autism and Vaccines have been thoroughly debunked.


That's what you hear everywhere and so blatantly and aggressively that you forget about possibilities, have you done research and looked at both sides of the story?


Yes, I have. I've read the paper by Andrew Wakefield and his colleagues that started it all, which was published in the prestigious medical journal, The Lancet. I've also read some of the subsequent studies that found no link between autism and the MMR vaccine. The scientific evidence overwhelmingly comes down on the side of no link.

Wakefield and his co-authors included twelve children in their study. Twelve. If you know anything about statistics that's nowhere near enough to provide the statistical power you need to boldly draw a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. After submitting the paper Wakefield and his team did examine 40 more patients, 39 of which had the syndrome the paper described as "gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression", including autism. Was it worth following up? Yes, if you trust that Wakefield's evidence was presented in good faith. Was it enough to justify the worldwide panic that resulted in serious public health implications that exist to this day? No.

In fact the paper itself says that "We did not prove an association between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and the syndrome described. Virological studies are underway that may help to resolve this issue. If there is a causal link between measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine and this syndrome, a rising incidence might be anticipated after the introduction of this vaccine in the UK in 1988. Published evidence is inadequate to show whether there is a change in incidence or a link with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine."

No such link has been found. The studies I have read personally included a darn sight more than 12 or even 52 children. This one contained over half a million.

And Wakefield's evidence was not presented in good faith. In numerous media appearances, including a video press release, he goes beyond what the study supports, in my opinion overstating the case for the link between MMR and autism, and recommends that the MMR be given as separate shots. What he never disclosed to The Lancet or the media was his involvement in a lawsuit attempting to link the MMR vaccine to autism, which garnered him over 400,000 pounds in fees, or the patent he held for a single-shot measles vaccine. Furthermore, according to an investigation by Brian Deer, which was published by the British Medical Journal, Wakefield seems to have misrepresented the data.

But perhaps most damning of all for the purported link between autism and the MMR is that no one has been able to replicate Wakefield's findings. If no one can repeat what you did, your hypothesis dies. Faced with these and countless other problems, The Lancet retracted the paper in 2010.

The 'other side' of the story hasn't got any evidence to lean on.



timf
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15 Jan 2016, 11:15 am

As I understand what could be called classical autism was characterized by severe symptoms and autopsies usually revealed severe brain malformation or damage.

As the industrialization of education went into high gear after WWII some consider how to address the problem of some children not being suited or even harmed by industrial processing.

In the 60s the term “minimal brain dysfunction” was coined to describe children who were not fitting into the established system. They felt that there must be some brain damage that was not yet discernable to explain the failure of some children to thrive in the machine that had been established. This thinking continues to this day with the medication of behavior as if behavior is a pathology.

Parents who have seen their child go from normal to severe autistic overnight when the only thing that has happened has been a vaccination are routinely dismissed for their anger. However, often secondary effect or reactions to vaccinations may not have been considered in such cases. For example, if a child were to have brain inflammation and swelling as a side effect of a vaccination, they might incur real brain damage from the pressure resulting from such a reaction. Once the swelling passed, there would be no evidence for what really caused the damage.

Those who have aspergers and ADHD may not have the brain “damage” many “professionals” assume. It may be a portion of the population has a type of neurological diversity that results in heightened sensing and processing that results in atypical behavior.

We live in a time of rapidly increasing collectivism. Such a social environment has little room for those who cannot be made conformable or homogenized to fit in to what is “normal”.

It is sad that consideration was never given to the consideration of the possibility that different people should be allowed to be different. In literature often people are described in such a way that we would call them characters or even eccentrics. In the last couple of generations I have observed the number of people I have encountered that could truly be called a “character” has markedly decreased.

I would not be too concerned about the pronouncements of the “professionals”. Since no one really understands what is going on, their classifications, labels, and categorizations have more to do with their own organizational tidiness than reality. I think the coping strategies and management techniques that we have discovered and can share with each other have greater value.



Jacoby
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15 Jan 2016, 11:54 am

Yes, I am pretty sure I got it.

My brother is permanently disabled because of brain damage resulting from the reactions he had to vaccines. MMR and DTaP specifically.

To say they've "debunked" anything is a lie because that would mean they have come up with the right answer which they haven't. The truth is they have no idea what causes autism, they know very little about the human brain.

Do you trust the government to tell the truth about adverse reactions to their mandated vaccines? I don't and like I said, I've seen the damage first hand.



zkydz
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15 Jan 2016, 12:49 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure I got it.

My brother is permanently disabled because of brain damage resulting from the reactions he had to vaccines. MMR and DTaP specifically.
Actually not true. Your refutation rests solely on the predication that it will NEVER happen. Nobody said that the Vaccines are 100% infallible as there are many things that can happen.

All vaccines work by basically giving you a dead version of a virus. The body will respond sometimes as if it is a full infection. So, if a person is going to get a reaction from the vaccine, they will have a much worse reaction to the full virus.

But, you live in a day and time when these diseases are just now coming back. Wait until you see the results of Mumps, Measles and Rubella in the population and their outbreak speeds. Why do you think it happened so fast in Disney Land?

Those are very, very bad diseases. Having had Mumps, Measles and Chicken Pox, I can attest to their infectiousness and how bad they will affect you. And, I had it mildly.

What is debunked is the link between vaccines and Autism.

Jacoby wrote:
To say they've "debunked" anything is a lie because that would mean they have come up with the right answer which they haven't. The truth is they have no idea what causes autism, they know very little about the human brain.
False equivalency. Just because I don't know how the moon got there, doesn't mean I haven't proven it's not made of green cheese. Correlation is not causation.

"He died from a heart attack."
"What caused the heart attack?"
"A bullet."

Jacoby wrote:
Do you trust the government to tell the truth about adverse reactions to their mandated vaccines? I don't and like I said, I've seen the damage first hand.
Oh, absolutely not. But, I do trust my experiences and my own research. I do not listen to the government about anything regarding science. But, I do read scientific articles all the time.


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Jacoby
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15 Jan 2016, 1:18 pm

zkydz wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure I got it.

My brother is permanently disabled because of brain damage resulting from the reactions he had to vaccines. MMR and DTaP specifically.
Actually not true. Your refutation rests solely on the predication that it will NEVER happen. Nobody said that the Vaccines are 100% infallible as there are many things that can happen.

All vaccines work by basically giving you a dead version of a virus. The body will respond sometimes as if it is a full infection. So, if a person is going to get a reaction from the vaccine, they will have a much worse reaction to the full virus.

But, you live in a day and time when these diseases are just now coming back. Wait until you see the results of Mumps, Measles and Rubella in the population and their outbreak speeds. Why do you think it happened so fast in Disney Land?

Those are very, very bad diseases. Having had Mumps, Measles and Chicken Pox, I can attest to their infectiousness and how bad they will affect you. And, I had it mildly.

What is debunked is the link between vaccines and Autism.

Jacoby wrote:
To say they've "debunked" anything is a lie because that would mean they have come up with the right answer which they haven't. The truth is they have no idea what causes autism, they know very little about the human brain.
False equivalency. Just because I don't know how the moon got there, doesn't mean I haven't proven it's not made of green cheese. Correlation is not causation.

"He died from a heart attack."
"What caused the heart attack?"
"A bullet."

Jacoby wrote:
Do you trust the government to tell the truth about adverse reactions to their mandated vaccines? I don't and like I said, I've seen the damage first hand.
Oh, absolutely not. But, I do trust my experiences and my own research. I do not listen to the government about anything regarding science. But, I do read scientific articles all the time.


Tell me about that Disneyland outbreak, how many people died? How many of them were adults that already had the measles vaccine? You know, the idea that a couple shots when you're a baby will protect you for life from these diseases is pretty silly, a good many of those that caught measles at Disneyland were VACCINATED ADULTS so the whole thing gets turned on its head for me. The CDC also said that the measles outbreak was brought in from out of this country so it has nothing to do with parents no vaccinating or some loss of "herd immunity".

My mom had measles as a child, it's basically a bad flu and any flu can have complications but if you're a healthy individual then you'll more than likely be perfectly okay.

People worry so much about vaccinating a kid for these non-deadly illnesses while they stuff their faces with processed food feeding an epidemic of obesity and diabetes, scar them emotionally and pump them full of psychotropic drugs, but yet are so paranoid that they don't let them play outside. The only kids I see outside now are Mexicans since that level of paranoia hasn't infect their parenting yet. We aren't doing the youth of our country any better, these country use to be a lot better place I think. Maybe I'm wrong...



AspieUtah
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15 Jan 2016, 1:41 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure I got it.

My brother is permanently disabled because of brain damage resulting from the reactions he had to vaccines. MMR and DTaP specifically.

To say they've "debunked" anything is a lie because that would mean they have come up with the right answer which they haven't. The truth is they have no idea what causes autism, they know very little about the human brain.

Do you trust the government to tell the truth about adverse reactions to their mandated vaccines? I don't and like I said, I've seen the damage first hand.

I have believed for years that adverse drug reactions (ADRs) affect individuals differently. Do an Internet search for the phrase "drug reaction, induce, mimic, disorder, disease" and look at the results. With so many varied induced or mimicked diseases and disorders caused by ADRs, it would be arrogant to believe that autism is the only disorder that can't be convincingly induced or mimicked by an ADR. I suspect that the rate of autism induction or mimicry is in the range of the overall ADR rates, certainly not an "explosion." Any increase in diagnoses is, of course, the 1980s change of autism diagnostic criteria. As kraftiekortie has mentioned, there are a variety of known paths to autism. Speaking only for myself, I believe that ADRs are just another path.


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15 Jan 2016, 2:07 pm

Jacoby wrote:
My mom had measles as a child, it's basically a bad flu and any flu can have complications but if you're a healthy individual then you'll more than likely be perfectly okay.

And that is where you lost any credibility you could have had. Not going to bang my head against the ignorance wall.


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Jacoby
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15 Jan 2016, 2:37 pm

zkydz wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
My mom had measles as a child, it's basically a bad flu and any flu can have complications but if you're a healthy individual then you'll more than likely be perfectly okay.

And that is where you lost any credibility you could have had. Not going to bang my head against the ignorance wall.


Is that not true? Will somebody in good health not survive measles? People die from the flu all the time, usually from pneumonia which is the same way people die from measles.



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15 Jan 2016, 2:56 pm

Jacoby wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
My mom had measles as a child, it's basically a bad flu and any flu can have complications but if you're a healthy individual then you'll more than likely be perfectly okay.

And that is where you lost any credibility you could have had. Not going to bang my head against the ignorance wall.


Is that not true? Will somebody in good health not survive measles? People die from the flu all the time, usually from pneumonia which is the same way people die from measles.

Last time I will entertain this:

Yes, people did die from the measles. And one case may not be bad due to an individual's inherent defense systems.

So many things play into that. What was the health during neonatal and post natal periods? Sickly? Healthy? Robust?
Was health impacted by other means? What are the genetics involved?

As far as death goes, you seem to think that would be the only bad thing?
Measles can cause encephalitis and brain damage
Mumps can cause meningitis, hearing loss, painful if not dangerous testicle and ovary swelling and damage.
Rubella (German Measles) can cause birth defects if the mother contracts it during pregnancy, Damaged hearts, deafness and blindness as well.
Chickenpox can cause extreme pain and not the only thought of itchiness. It is the Shingles virus after all.

Each of the diseases I listed not only create those problems in children, but it escalates as the patient gets older.

So, yeah, you lost all credibility when you said it's 'just like a flu'. Total rubbish and could have been found out with 5 minutes in front of google looking for an answer instead of looking for the answer you want.
You are obviously young and have not had to deal with this because I am old enough to remember polio victims in wheelchairs or with tragically deformed legs. Generation before me, yeah, people did die of this crap and many of them were healthy.

Basically, it's impossible to have a literate discussion with a conspiracy theorist. So, believe what you want. But I will not respond to bad research and bad science.


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15 Jan 2016, 6:18 pm

To answer the OP, I was born before the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines were combined into the MMR in the US in 1971, and my mom says I definitely had symptoms before then. I was 5 in 1971, and I was showing symptoms by age 2 or 3. I am diagnosed moderately autistic under the DSM-V. The psychologist says I would have been diagnosed with Asperger's under the DSM-IV. My first cousin is older than I, and is diagnosed with classic autism. The family all agree that my dad and grandfather probably had mild to moderate autism or Asperger's. I would just love to run around and get genetic samples of all of Dad's family to see if any trends show up.

My first cousin is daughter of my dad's brother. Her brother has an autistic son, as does the grandchild of my dad's sister. That's four descendants of my grandfather diagnosed with some level of autism, plus I suspect one of my nephews as well. It makes a pretty decent case for there being a genetic component.

I agree with kraftiekortie that there are probably many autisms--numerous studies are indicating a lot of different genes that are implicated in autism. There's also very likely environmental "triggers" that might act on some kind of vulnerability (what's called "epigenetic" causes). This is why you will see a high rate of identical twins that both have autism, but not 100%. It's also probably a good explanation for why my aunt and uncle were not autistic but one of their kids and two grandkids were. My brothers missed getting autism, but both seemed to be a bit learning disabled in school, in spite of being very smart. A lot of families will have other cognitive disorders like learning disabilities, ADHD and mood disorders like bipolarism, OCD, and depression.

The December issue of Discover Mind had a good article on the genetics of autism, and NIH has an overview here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15121991

It's also worthwhile to note that I never went through the sudden regression described by parents of some severely autistic children--my mom noted me staring at pictures in a book for an hour and being able to pick out anything in a room that had changed, as young as two. She also noted that I cried the first time she picked me up. I'm not discounting the possibility of environmental triggers like toxins, but I don't think it's universal. It's also possible that some brain injuries mimic autism (like Retts syndrome, caused by aspirin).


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Jacoby
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15 Jan 2016, 6:26 pm

zkydz wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
zkydz wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
My mom had measles as a child, it's basically a bad flu and any flu can have complications but if you're a healthy individual then you'll more than likely be perfectly okay.

And that is where you lost any credibility you could have had. Not going to bang my head against the ignorance wall.


Is that not true? Will somebody in good health not survive measles? People die from the flu all the time, usually from pneumonia which is the same way people die from measles.

Last time I will entertain this:

Yes, people did die from the measles. And one case may not be bad due to an individual's inherent defense systems.

So many things play into that. What was the health during neonatal and post natal periods? Sickly? Healthy? Robust?
Was health impacted by other means? What are the genetics involved?

As far as death goes, you seem to think that would be the only bad thing?
Measles can cause encephalitis and brain damage
Mumps can cause meningitis, hearing loss, painful if not dangerous testicle and ovary swelling and damage.
Rubella (German Measles) can cause birth defects if the mother contracts it during pregnancy, Damaged hearts, deafness and blindness as well.
Chickenpox can cause extreme pain and not the only thought of itchiness. It is the Shingles virus after all.

Each of the diseases I listed not only create those problems in children, but it escalates as the patient gets older.

So, yeah, you lost all credibility when you said it's 'just like a flu'. Total rubbish and could have been found out with 5 minutes in front of google looking for an answer instead of looking for the answer you want.
You are obviously young and have not had to deal with this because I am old enough to remember polio victims in wheelchairs or with tragically deformed legs. Generation before me, yeah, people did die of this crap and many of them were healthy.

Basically, it's impossible to have a literate discussion with a conspiracy theorist. So, believe what you want. But I will not respond to bad research and bad science.


My mom told me it was like a bad flu, she had measles when she was a child. I'm very healthy, I'm not worried about the flu or measles. Considering how much hysteria there was over that Disneyland thing, I don't believe anyone died or had seriously complications. Most of those infected were VACCINATED ADULTS fwiw. The hysteria about people not vaccinated their children is the real problem, this infection came from out of the country but of course this did not stop all the little Hitlers in this country from proposing a mandate over your body. Do you get your flu shot every year?

polio isn't measles btw