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Feyokien
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24 Jan 2016, 8:52 pm

Decadeology wrote:
Feyokien wrote:
Why are women listed as a minority? They're half the damn population for christs sake.


They're not a minority in a numerical sense (except in Asia where girls have been artificially reduced in number via abortion and killing) but in terms of wealth and power, women are still globally discriminated against with the exception of Western women born after 1980 who are probably on par with men.

It does irritate me as an Aspie man when NT women say I'm more privileged than them. I can agree that I'm more privileged than a woman with Aspergers, but the gulf in power between NTs and neurotypicals is much broader than the gulf between men and women, especially in western countries.


I don't mean to derail the thread on this point sorry.

I get that women globally are still under the boot, but we're talking about pride and social justice in the Western world where women shouldn't be called minorities anymore. It's like kicking a dead horse and the language is caustic towards women actually. Being called a minority is kind of derogatory, it makes the individual feel they're somehow less than others.

On to the topic on hand, I think you should get away from the "Label" community as I like to call them. Be an individual, live your life without even heeding the idea that you're somehow less than others and you'll be a lot happier and get a lot farther.



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24 Jan 2016, 8:56 pm

selflessness wrote:
I think it would be a start if people would realize that ASD and intelligence are unrelated. There's the misconception that we either have extraordinary talents or suffer intellectual disability with nothing in between. I don't like standardized IQ tests either. We often do really well on parts of them and poorly on others, simply because of how our brain is wired. They were designed for NT people and quite frankly we perceive the world in a very different way so drawing meaningful conclusions is difficult if possible at all.

I say this because it contributes to these misconceptions and also causes problems when it comes to disability benefits. If your IQ is too high it gets quite tedious even though it's mostly unrelated to the problems that people with ASD face. And it's really hard to actually prove that these problems are a result of ASD. Even though the numbers speak for themselves looking at rates of employment, depression, suicidal thoughts, homelessness and what not. Not that it's impossible to be succesful and/or happy with ASD, but it is what it is.



I too dislike the idea of ranking autistic people based on their IQ. It has little to do with fundamental differences within autism, but rather how useful an autistic person is perceived as being to society. This screws over both verbal and nonverbal autistic people because the idea that "low functioning" people have intelligence is denied and "high functioning" people are seen as being lazy or arrogant because they struggle in other ways despite being good at subjects that IQ tests rate.

For example I might have a high IQ score, but in other ways I'm pretty much ret*d. Conversely lots of "low functioning" people might be better at certain things than me like using a cash register even if they might be worse at grasping things like science and history. There's different kinds of intelligence and autism tends to favor some kinds greatly and others less so, but not in any consistent way.


selflessness wrote:
I'm not really one to complain quickly. But if I look at what LGBT, foreigners, transgenders, women or whatever social group have to suffer, it doesn't even compare to living with ASD. It really doesn't. And none of them have it easy by any means so that's saying something.


I agree. I mean in extreme cases it can be comparable or even worse than what we go through, like during the Holocaust (though people with mental differences were killed way before racial minorities were), but overall I find it offensive when a popular successful neurotypical woman or man of color tells me I'm privileged just because I have a high IQ and I'm a white male when it's obvious they have way more power within society than I do.

I agree that if I were also a woman or person of color it would likely make things worse but IMO the bias society has against us is almost incomparable. That's not me feeling sorry for myself, it's just being aware of reality.


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Last edited by Decadeology on 24 Jan 2016, 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Decadeology
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24 Jan 2016, 9:05 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
This probably belongs in the Politics section but here it goes. My theory is that unlike a black people who has a minority skin, LBGT who has minority sexuality, we have different way of thinking. IMHO many progressives view people who think differently then them as lessers who are a threat to thier view of the way the world should be.

Eugenics is not 'Right-wing'

Ellasaid Woodhouse, Eugenics and the Left


As a leftist, I agree with you. The left is very intolerant of different modes of thought and this needs to be changed. It's very hypocritical to oppose racism and sexism yet also embrace neurotypical supremacism.

However the right is no kinder to people on the spectrum. Many of them are Social Darwinists who believe that autism is a moral weakness and that people who can't be economically self sufficient don't deserve to live, or should be forced to rely on the charity of others, which of course would be scant for people with autism considering the way people think about us.


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Last edited by Decadeology on 24 Jan 2016, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Marybird
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24 Jan 2016, 9:06 pm

Pride in this sense really means self acceptance and acknowledging the good and human parts of yourself.
This is what everyone has a right to do and should do.
Autism is developmental so it is literally part of who you are and your personality and it is never a good idea to not like yourself.
About 1 in 68 people have an autistic disorder, so many that it is seems almost like a normal variation in the population and there's more than enough socially gifted people in the world to attend to the social stuff.

Autism is a disorder of the synapses. Most of the genes found that are implicated in autism contribute to the pathway involved in pruning synapses in the brain.
Excess synapses are the main cause of the core symptoms of autism, and also including the autistic brain doing more information processing in the resting state and having talents and abilities along with the disabilities.
I see nothing here that anyone should be ashamed of and you do have reason to be proud.



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24 Jan 2016, 9:08 pm

If you read up on and talk to people of other groups who have "pride" celebrations (including Pride, the LGBT celebration) you will find a common thread. Public celebrations of pride are NOT something others "allow" you to have. Pride is something you *take*. They exist, in fact, because others try to not allow you to be proud. Pride is something you do as a public display because you reach a breaking point. You get sick and tired of people oppressing you as a group and promoting all sorts of false images of you. You show them you have pride by celebrating it and for a day, not caring what "they" think of you.

And once you get rolling, groups like Autism Speaks *will* try to appropriate your celebration and make money off it. That's when you know you've arrived, so to speak...


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Decadeology
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24 Jan 2016, 9:17 pm

Marybird wrote:
Autism is a disorder of the synapses. Most of the genes found that are implicated in autism contribute to the pathway involved in pruning synapses in the brain.
Excess synapses are the main cause of the core symptoms of autism, and also including the autistic brain doing more information processing in the resting state and having talents and abilities along with the disabilities.
I see nothing here that anyone should be ashamed of and you do have reason to be proud.


Would you say autistic brains are more "child-like"? Not in the sense of being immature in a pathological way, but children also have less pruning and more connections between their synapses and autistic traits seem to be more intense during childhood. Autistic people also "sponge" information to process later while neurotypical people "filter" information they see as relevant on the spot (which I think is why NTs are more of a "hivemind" compared to us and tend to be into mostly the same socially-oriented stuff like sports and religion), which seems similar to the difference between NT children and NT adults.

I know my family perceives me as being childish even though I've always felt the same on the inside as long as I can remember. I think in some ways kids are actually smarter than adults, they just aren't as experienced.


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ASPartOfMe
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25 Jan 2016, 12:54 am

Decadeology wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
This probably belongs in the Politics section but here it goes. My theory is that unlike a black people who has a minority skin, LBGT who has minority sexuality, we have different way of thinking. IMHO many progressives view people who think differently then them as lessers who are a threat to thier view of the way the world should be.

Eugenics is not 'Right-wing'

Ellasaid Woodhouse, Eugenics and the Left


As a leftist, I agree with you. The left is very intolerant of different modes of thought and this needs to be changed. It's very hypocritical to oppose racism and sexism yet also embrace neurotypical supremacism.

However the right is no kinder to people on the spectrum. Many of them are Social Darwinists who believe that autism is a moral weakness and that people who can't be economically self sufficient don't deserve to live, or should be forced to rely on the charity of others, which of course would be scant for people with autism considering the way people think about us.


The right is more obvoius.


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25 Jan 2016, 2:16 am

Decadeology wrote:
Why do NTs get mad when we acknowledge the fact that most people do feel biased against us and many people outright hate us and would rather we went extinct? It's just a fact if you read the comments on any video about autism on YouTube, especially if the autistic person is not good looking or having a meltdown. You'll see many people saying we ought to be locked up for life or killed on the spot and in my opinion they're completely serious most of the time.

I don't acknowledge this fact because I feel enormous self pity and a "persecution complex", it's because I'm finally aware enough to recognize reality. I never fully realized the bias and hatred we face until very recently.



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25 Jan 2016, 2:16 am

Decadeology wrote:
Why do NTs get mad when we acknowledge the fact that most people do feel biased against us and many people outright hate us and would rather we went extinct? It's just a fact if you read the comments on any video about autism on YouTube, especially if the autistic person is not good looking or having a meltdown. You'll see many people saying we ought to be locked up for life or killed on the spot and in my opinion they're completely serious most of the time.

I don't acknowledge this fact because I feel enormous self pity and a "persecution complex", it's because I'm finally aware enough to recognize reality. I never fully realized the bias and hatred we face until very recently.



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25 Jan 2016, 3:39 am

Edenthiel wrote:
If you read up on and talk to people of other groups who have "pride" celebrations (including Pride, the LGBT celebration) you will find a common thread. Public celebrations of pride are NOT something others "allow" you to have. Pride is something you *take*. They exist, in fact, because others try to not allow you to be proud. Pride is something you do as a public display because you reach a breaking point. You get sick and tired of people oppressing you as a group and promoting all sorts of false images of you. You show them you have pride by celebrating it and for a day, not caring what "they" think of you.

And once you get rolling, groups like Autism Speaks *will* try to appropriate your celebration and make money off it. That's when you know you've arrived, so to speak...


Thanks for expressing this and so cogently. Spot on



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25 Jan 2016, 6:45 am

selflessness wrote:
I think it would be a start if people would realize that ASD and intelligence are unrelated. There's the misconception that we either have extraordinary talents or suffer intellectual disability with nothing in between. I don't like standardized IQ tests either. We often do really well on parts of them and poorly on others, simply because of how our brain is wired. They were designed for NT people and quite frankly we perceive the world in a very different way so drawing meaningful conclusions is difficult if possible at all.

I say this because it contributes to these misconceptions and also causes problems when it comes to disability benefits. If your IQ is too high it gets quite tedious even though it's mostly unrelated to the problems that people with ASD face. And it's really hard to actually prove that these problems are a result of ASD. Even though the numbers speak for themselves looking at rates of employment, depression, suicidal thoughts, homelessness and what not. Not that it's impossible to be succesful and/or happy with ASD, but it is what it is.


IQ and autism are related, though. The fact is that the rate of cognitive disability is higher among autistic people, and that's nothing to be ashamed of. Cognitive disabilities are just as much part of neurodiversity as autism is.

Though I do agree with you about the problems of high-IQ autistics. So many services would help across the spectrum but are limited to people with cognitive disabilities.

What many people don't realize is that high IQ autistic people still have a lot in common with people with cognitive disabilities. Most of us lag behind our IQ in independent living skills, so it's pretty common to see an autistic person with an IQ in the gifted range whose adaptive behaviour in in the 60s (adaptive behaviour scales are normed just like IQ). I've met people with Down Syndrome with better independent living skills than I have, and my IQ is 137.



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25 Jan 2016, 8:12 am

Ettina wrote:

What many people don't realize is that high IQ autistic people still have a lot in common with people with cognitive disabilities. Most of us lag behind our IQ in independent living skills, so it's pretty common to see an autistic person with an IQ in the gifted range whose adaptive behaviour in in the 60s (adaptive behaviour scales are normed just like IQ). I've met people with Down Syndrome with better independent living skills than I have, and my IQ is 137.


This! My IQ is also in the 130s yet in many ways I'm pretty much ret*d when it comes to simple things.


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25 Jan 2016, 4:44 pm

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Would you say autistic brains are more "child-like"? Not in the sense of being immature in a pathological way, but children also have less pruning and more connections between their synapses and autistic traits seem to be more intense during childhood. Autistic people also "sponge" information to process later while neurotypical people "filter" information they see as relevant on the spot (which I think is why NTs are more of a "hivemind" compared to us and tend to be into mostly the same socially-oriented stuff like sports and religion), which seems similar to the difference between NT children and NT adults.

I know my family perceives me as being childish even though I've always felt the same on the inside as long as I can remember. I think in some ways kids are actually smarter than adults, they just aren't as experienced.

I absolutely agree with this.



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25 Jan 2016, 7:55 pm

StarTrekker wrote:
Leave him alone Fnord, you never have anything nice to say to anyone. Virtually all of your posts either attack or dismiss people, and you make people feel bad about themselves. My evidence is my direct observation of your behaviour on these boards for the past four years I've been here. If you would like specific examples, I refer you to your own post history page...
Questioning the validity of claims is not the same as attacking the people making the claims.

In this thread, for example, I was trying to find out if the OP's claim of not being allowed to be proud was an empirical fact or just a subjective opinion. If factual, then it would be worthwhile for me to look into on my own. If opinion, then it is not worth my time.

As it turns out, it has (eventually) dawned on me that the OP was merely stating his opinion.

Again, I could be completely wrong, so let's just wait and see what develops, shall we?


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26 Jan 2016, 10:32 am

As far as I can see, as an autistic person I'm allowed to be as proud as I want to be, so I agree with Fnord that the OP's question is itself questionable. But I think it's probably true that the world is in general rather ashamed of autistic people, and that this "not disabled just different" thing isn't echoed by the majority. I don't bother much with pride, I think it's dangerous, so I confine my reaction to refusing to feel ashamed of myself. Displays of group pride just annoy me, I see them as a over-reaction, a denial of inner doubt about the group's worth.



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26 Jan 2016, 8:56 pm

Fnord wrote:
StarTrekker wrote:
Leave him alone Fnord, you never have anything nice to say to anyone. Virtually all of your posts either attack or dismiss people, and you make people feel bad about themselves. My evidence is my direct observation of your behaviour on these boards for the past four years I've been here. If you would like specific examples, I refer you to your own post history page...
Questioning the validity of claims is not the same as attacking the people making the claims.

In this thread, for example, I was trying to find out if the OP's claim of not being allowed to be proud was an empirical fact or just a subjective opinion. If factual, then it would be worthwhile for me to look into on my own. If opinion, then it is not worth my time.

As it turns out, it has (eventually) dawned on me that the OP was merely stating his opinion.

Again, I could be completely wrong, so let's just wait and see what develops, shall we?

It didn't strike you as a weird idea to ask a person for peer reviewed papers on how other people treat the same individual?

Simply asking for a paper makes no sense whatsoever. Please refine what you are asking.