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Mikah
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28 Jan 2016, 9:12 pm

Hey. Back from holiday, I spent some time recently thinking about Islam and what's going on in the middle east with ISIS, these crass interventions by western powers, Muslim immigration into western countries causing friction at best, armed conflict at worst.

As a conservative (not a Tory or Republican - if I were American) and opposed to mass immigration for its effects on culture and harmony, I am often lumped in with the neo conservative crowd who see a terrorist attack, roll their eyes and say "The religion of peace at it again hohoho." or "This is what Islam always does.". Indeed it's a comforting worldview, to have such a simple unchanging barbarous enemy. I do agree that muslim immigration is a unique threat to stability of my country and others, but as always reality is not so simple, the modern neocon perception of Islam just doesn't fit the narrative of history.

Islam, though younger, has been through almost everything Christianity has been through. It's been part of expanding empires, part of dying empires, won battles and territory, lost battles and territory. It has been the centre of scientific advancement, it has been the centre of scientific regression. One particular passage from John Glubb's "Fate of Empires" struck a chord, alas I can't find a full english version of the writings of Ibn Bessam:

Quote:
An increase in the influence of women in public life has often been associated with national decline. The later Romans complained that, although Rome ruled the world, women ruled Rome. In the tenth century, a similar tendency was observable in the Arab Empire, the women demanding admission to the professions hitherto monopolised by men.
"What", wrote the contemporary historian, Ibn Bessam, "have the professions of clerk, tax-collector or preacher to do with women? These occupations have always been limited to men alone."
Many women practiced law, while others obtained posts as university professors. There was an agitation for the appointment of female judges, which, however, does not appear to have succeeded.


Proto-feminism in the 10th century Arab Empire? That does not compute with Islam. Women of course are supposed to look like Cylons under Islam and take beatings with joyful deference.

Another more recent example some "before the Taliban" photos:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/trave ... rkets.html

Strange isn't it, there are uncovered women there, learning in unsegregated classes and not being shot in the head. To the untrained eye, you might mistake it for European country of that era. The men aren't busy firing Kalashnikovs into the air, stoning adulterers or beheading people for witchcraft. But that is most definitely a muslim country only 50 odd years ago.

Something ain't right with this picture. Something has changed in the last 50 years. Apparently the Quran can be reinterpreted or selectively ignored to allow what I consider more civilised, flexible societies to grow, just not recently for some reason.

The same aforementioned neocons say "Islam needs reformation". I'm beginning to believe:

Firstly, we are in the middle of an Islamic reformation right now.
Secondly, this is a global phenomenom. It's affecting Muslims worldwide (not saying they are picking sides, just saying it's affecting them, noone in that faith can say they are truly untouched by it)

I think historians will say it started in the 70s with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the rise of the Taliban, and it's grown from strength to strength since then. The reformers have their own state now (though it's likely to be short-lived). Point is erasing ISIS isn't going to solve the greater reformation, another ISIS clone will arrive shortly thereafter and this will begin again. The so-called "moderate" rebels of Syria are just as radical and regressive as ISIS if you look into them, far from the secular minded liberals they are painted as.

It's not just about ISIS and the middle east though, it's fuelling the fire started by multicultural fanatics in western countries, as time goes on Muslim communities are becoming more segregated, more hostile. Trump's quip about no-go zones in England wasn't entirely false, sharia patrols are a real thing too. In Turkey, Ataturk's secular reformation is being undone piece by piece by Mr "ISIS-in-a-suit" Erdogan, and he has an awful lot of support from his citizens.

If this is an Islamic reformation, we are dealing with this in the worst possible way. Instead of trying to help form an organised counter reformation, we engage in recreational bombing of muslim countries helping fuel the Mujahideen narrative of Western oppression. We selectively aid the radical reformers for our own cynical advantages, guess who funded the Taliban during the Soviet-Afghan war? Guess who installed the Ayatollah? Guess who trained and armed ISIS? Yup.

To deal with muslim friction in our own countries we stick our heads in the sand constantly saying "Islam is a religion of peace" and seperating "good muslims" from "crazy muslims" and then stand there gormless as the children of "good" muslims run off to Syria to join ISIS. If this is a reformation, and there is no organised resistance the change will be gradual and inevitable. The older generation die off, the young (increasingly radical according to recent surveys) will take over. Pretty soon the crazy ones will be a "sizeable minority", then "majority" then likely "occupants of mass graves". Yet another stain on our conscience.


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Last edited by Mikah on 28 Jan 2016, 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Mikah
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28 Jan 2016, 9:15 pm

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Last edited by Mikah on 28 Jan 2016, 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mikah
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28 Jan 2016, 9:18 pm

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Last edited by Mikah on 28 Jan 2016, 9:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mikah
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28 Jan 2016, 9:20 pm

There is something seriously off with the captcha, it won't let me post certain paragraphs. Trying to fix it now, maybe it is concerned about the concentration of certain words. I feel like I'm on some kind of watchlist now.

Fixed finally, someone needs to tweak that captcha though, it took many attempts to make edits and posts.


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28 Jan 2016, 10:33 pm

Short posts with no links or edits don't get "Captcha'ed".


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Mikah
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28 Jan 2016, 11:02 pm

Something odd was going on. This paragraph in particular:

I think historians will say it started in the 70s with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the rise of the Taliban, and it's grown from strength to strength since then. The reformers have their own state now (though it's likely to be short-lived). Point is erasing ISIS isn't going to solve the greater reformation, another ISIS clone will arrive shortly thereafter and this will begin again. The so-called "moderate" rebels of Syria are just as radical and regressive as ISIS if you look into them, far from the secular minded liberals they are painted as.

Was always captcha'd even in a post of its own with no links. Not that I mind much in theory, but the captcha kept blanking the post instead of submitting/previewing. I tried splitting the original post into several smaller ones and then the captcha actually allowed posting again, so I put it back together into one long post. Took several attempts to pass the captcha each time though.

Edit: was captcha'd for this post. It took two attempts for the captcha to allow the post to be submitted. My only guess is it sees: Taliban Afghanistan ISIS ISIS ISIS Syria ISIS and now I'm on some CIA database.


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29 Jan 2016, 5:03 am

You were already on that database. We all are.

CAPTCHA is a motherhuffer. It always takes me at least four goes round. Sometimes I'm just stuck in an apparently infinite 'post a reply' loop, where the reply is never posted. I then give up and break the response into smaller posts. It is very offputting.

A detailed response that uses quotes will get CAPTCHA'd to death. Meanwhile, a brief spam for a particular site gets through. There's a few threads about it in the subforum 'Wrongplanet.net Discussion'.

You're less likely to get CAPTCHA if you keep the post quick in composition, short, and quote-free.


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29 Jan 2016, 8:17 am

Several events have happened in the last 100 or so years, this is a nutshell description;

1.) The Ottoman Empire which was already in an advanced state of decline died after WW1, and so with it the Ottoman Caliphate.

2.) Oil was discovered in Saudi Arabia, which had been more or less a backwards, remote area of the Ottoman Empire. The only people that really lived there were the native arab tribesmen
who had always lived there. Their culture is essentially unchaged from biblical times. The kindgom of Saudi Arabia was formed when the Ibn Saud united the more powerful tribes of Suadi Arabia by either conquest, or intermarriage. He followed a version of Islam called Wahabbism. Wahhabism is a very strict school of Islam that is native to the Arabian peninsula.

3.) Because of the fact that the holy cities of Mecca and Medina are in Saudi Arabia, and Islam was born in what is now Saudi Arabia, the Saudi Royal family sees themselves as the protectors of the Holy sites of Islam, and they are now very rich from their oil money, they see themselves at the forefront of the spread of Islam, and they use their money to spread their brand of Islam. --They are actively seeking to establish a Caliphate based on Wahabbi Doctrine.

4.) Groups like the Taliban and Daesh/ISIS are also based on the same principles of Wahhabism, but they are also far removed from the proper Wahhabist doctrine due to the fact that they come from areas that are even more backwards than what Saudi Arabia was like a century or so ago. -- A lot of the Taliban types sole source of information, and sole source of education material is the Koran, and they see themselves as being at the forefront of returning to the same type of life that was lived in biblical times because they view the societal evolution that happened in both Europe, and the Ottoman Empire as the corruption of colonial aggressors.


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Jacoby
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29 Jan 2016, 12:40 pm

Islam is what it always has been, a supremacist belief system made up originally by marauding desert nomads that raided/plundered/conquered any neighboring tribe or community they could and those are still the same people that control the faith today as set up by design. You can't compare it to Christianity even tho there were some dark times, not all religions are equal or the same and you only have look to the Quran and their other texts to see the difference. Islam is about submitting yourself to Allah, not peace or anything else, whereas Christianity is one of forgiveness and redemption. Islam is much more in depth as a religion than Judaism or Christianity, they already think of themselves as the reformation with the final revelation from God. It controls their entire lives from their political, judicial, and any personal decision they might make.

We need people to move on from Islam to other religions or to atheism as I don't think Islam will ever become as ineffectual Christianity has in the west, if we're not mindful it will conquer Christianity in the west in the long run as they are the warrior religion not us. They are outbreeding us, it doesn't matter if it is a 100 or 200 years but Islam will conquer Europe just as it has every where else it has spread because eventually they will be the majority and what happens in every Muslim country that they have a majority in? History can turn on dime like that, what would the world look like Charles Martel lost the Battle of Tours? It's been close before.

We have to learn to protect our own culture, values, and identity, what is the point of multiculturalism if you don't protect your own? That's self-hatred and ultimately suicidal. I don't believe in multiculturalism, I believe in Western and ultimately American values. Is it wrong that I only want people(and I really don't care what shade) that actually want to be Americans and embrace our culture? I am very strong proponent of the melting pot, I believe that is ultimately what America great and the power that it was in the 20th century. Anything else will fracture and ultimately destroy this country.



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29 Jan 2016, 10:45 pm

Jacoby wrote:
They are outbreeding us, it doesn't matter if it is a 100 or 200 years but Islam will conquer Europe just as it has every where else it has spread because eventually they will be the majority and what happens in every Muslim country that they have a majority in?

I wouldn't say the future is set in stone by any means. I think a lot of Europeans realize that it is becoming a problem, and if we could just move past this asinine political correctness then countermeasures could be taken, culturally and socially.

I would speculate some of the confusion here is that there is a difference between the practice of Islam as a religion and Islam as a political/social/religious "package deal" if you will. The more enlightened times in Islam's history might be times when adherence to the religion was seen as strictly a spiritual practice. As just a religion, I would say it's possibly neutral, not really good per say but acceptable at least. But when treated as a political stance where the end goal is sharia law, it is absolutely as dangerous and evil as the spread of communism at the height of the cold war.

One thing does come to mind in terms of a counterculture movement. My sister read a book about this girl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai It's a start at least.

But, as Mikah suggested in his first post, if things don't change it will probably start to get bloody. Sadly this is the first thing that came to mind: https://youtu.be/K-YyL7X4CWw?t=1m8s



Jacoby
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29 Jan 2016, 11:09 pm

The true practice of Islam is political, social, religious, every facet of their lives and culture. At one time Islam may of been relatively progressive but it isn't the dark ages anymore, they did not have enlightenment or a reformation which is why their value system is one that hasn't evolved as ours has. Political Islam is dominant now because the power the Saudis and other Arab tribes now have, the Ottoman's were fairly hands off in their territories and Islam may of been more casual but now the center of Islam has been returned to where it began to anti-western Wahhabi fundamentalists. That's the head of the snake right there, as long as the Saudis are allowed to control Islam then this threat we are facing is one even more dangerous than fascism or communism.



Mikah
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30 Jan 2016, 1:32 am

Quote:
They are outbreeding us, it doesn't matter if it is a 100 or 200 years but Islam will conquer Europe just as it has every where else it has spread because eventually they will be the majority and what happens in every Muslim country that they have a majority in?


I used to be concerned about this until this migrant crisis arose. The utopian fools that have lead Europe into decay have outdone themselves this time. They've accidentally set in motion a second Reconquista, that may well sweep away every other non-white European citizen along with it. We have Germany and Sweden engaging in blatant censorship of all negative news items regarding migrant misbehaviour that they just can't get away with in the digital age, ensuring not only will people turn against the migrants, but also their respective governments (that act of censorship is in itself a marker for how concerned the governments are about uprisings).

I don't think "Eurabia" is a real possibility any more. The best hope at present would be the re-establishment of more traditional European monocultures (i.e. personal liberties restored, Christianity re-privileged above other faiths and cherished once more) throughout Europe with merciless, unilateral integration of the new(ish) arrivals to Europe. But that won't be possible with Islam circling the Wahhabi drain as it is.

The only other two (and I fear more likely options) are mass deportation or mass graves. If we do go down these routes, allow me to make some predictions:
1) it will be Europe wide and may well touch the North American continent and Putin may well take the oppourtunity during the chaos to deal with "problem groups" in his own country.
2) Governments, public servants, journalists and any one with a public platform who has expressed pro-migrant views will be targeted too. It could well end up the bloodiest episode in human history to date.


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30 Jan 2016, 12:06 pm

Inventor ^

You forgot to drag the Neanderthal Man into it this time like you always do! :D

Your Neanderthal theories are so ludicrous and laughable that they make your racism too funny to be offensive.

But since you forgot to force the Neanderthal Man into it this time - that laughable factor is gone. And this time you're just being offensive!



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30 Jan 2016, 8:20 pm



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15 Feb 2016, 3:42 am

Jacoby wrote:
The true practice of Islam is political, social, religious, every facet of their lives and culture. At one time Islam may of been relatively progressive but it isn't the dark ages anymore, they did not have enlightenment or a reformation which is why their value system is one that hasn't evolved as ours has. Political Islam is dominant now because the power the Saudis and other Arab tribes now have, the Ottoman's were fairly hands off in their territories and Islam may of been more casual but now the center of Islam has been returned to where it began to anti-western Wahhabi fundamentalists. That's the head of the snake right there, as long as the Saudis are allowed to control Islam then this threat we are facing is one even more dangerous than fascism or communism.

Maybe the Saudis are partly responsible for the spread of Salafism via funding, but now it's also a monster with a mind of it's own. If the Salafists of today were to overthrow the Saudi regime, they would replace the current Saudi system with an even more severe/extreme version of sharia. Saudi Arabia is "moderate" compared to what the jihadists of today want. Also, ISIS is now full of western converts who are crazier than the average arab from the Arabian peninsula who was born into the religion. It has become a cult. It is a mind disease.