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helloarchy
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21 Apr 2016, 1:04 pm

Yeah, you're right. But that's gender, not sex. I was talking about sex. Surely identifying as no sex, or a different sex, doesn't make it so - and that's what I mean. Anyone can swing from gender to gender, or neither, that's cool. But saying "I'm female" or "I'm neither male nor female" doesn't make it so physically. Sex is not a spectrum, although I agree gender is. This is where I struggle to understand "identifying". Again, sorry if I cause offence or if I'm ruining this thread.



Dulin
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21 Apr 2016, 1:26 pm

helloarchy wrote:
Yeah, you're right. But that's gender, not sex. I was talking about sex. Surely identifying as no sex, or a different sex, doesn't make it so - and that's what I mean. Anyone can swing from gender to gender, or neither, that's cool. But saying "I'm female" or "I'm neither male nor female" doesn't make it so physically. Sex is not a spectrum, although I agree gender is. This is where I struggle to understand "identifying". Again, sorry if I cause offence or if I'm ruining this thread.


Yea I understand what you mean. That's why this is so complicated, what is gender and what is sex? If you have XX and XY as female and male respectively, then what is XXX and X? It doesn't always lead to female male phenotypes. And then there other karyotypes, XXY, XYY, XXXY.

Is a female a person with a functional uterus and a vagina? What about those people born without a uterus and vagina? Yes, there are sexual dimorphism in humans, but there are also all those other individuals that to not meet the "standard". What are they then? Do they get to decide or will just be ignored? I mean, you look at the animal kingdom and go "ah, that is an infertile female". But you can't say that to a human. Identity is important in society. Either way one day we'll be able to turn a stem cell into an egg or sperm, so even if a person doesn't have a uterus, they will still be fertile. :lol:



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21 Apr 2016, 5:07 pm

helloarchy wrote:
If you're a marmorkrebs, komodo dragon, whiptail lizard, hammerhead shark, parasitic wasp, then fair enough; you're asexual physically, not imaginarily.

Sorry if I seem close minded or rude, but I just don't understand it. As far as sexual preference and transgender goes, fair enough, but identifying as something doesn't change anything. [insert "I identify as an Apache attack helicopter joke here]


Asexual is actually a thing in case you don't know. It means you don't desire sex ...

Dulin wrote:
Ask yourself how important is it for them to know that you are non-binary? If they already accept you as you are, behave and dress, then saying that you a non-binary is not so needed. What will change?

In my case, I haven't really told my dad, but he is super open about everything and also questions everything - we have AMAZING discussions. Of course he finds some of my very contemporary ideals "extreme", but that is mostly a generation issue. Recently we talked about the whole US craziness about bathrooms, and he mentioned about this guy in his gym that wears stereotypically female clothing and uses the man's bathroom. I asked him "Do you know if they want to be called him or she? Maybe you should ask. Either way, just because a man wears dresses doesn't make him a woman or trans. It's simply a guy that wears dresses. Maybe he is non-binary. I am non-binary - I don't really associate with being male or female. Gender is a spectrum, you can fall on anywhere. Society tells you to be one or the other." He agreed, we moved on to another topic.

Just giving my personal example because it doesn't have to be a big deal. But it really depends on you and what YOU want to achieve and feel.


Heh it sounds like you dad is pretty open minded about it at least. My parents think its disgusting and perverted ...



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21 Apr 2016, 6:38 pm

helloarchy wrote:
Surely it doesn't matter what you identify as - it doesn't change anything physically. You wouldn't turn up to a gynaecologist with male parts. You still use the male/female toilets. The defining body part is still there when you look in your underwear. Your human, and in the human world, you're either male or female, it's a matter of chromosomes.

If you're a marmorkrebs, komodo dragon, whiptail lizard, hammerhead shark, parasitic wasp, then fair enough; you're asexual physically, not imaginarily.

Sorry if I seem close minded or rude, but I just don't understand it. As far as sexual preference and transgender goes, fair enough, but identifying as something doesn't change anything. [insert "I identify as an Apache attack helicopter joke here]


The problem is that not everyone is okay with their biological sex, and they would rather not be defined by it.


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RemiBeaker
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23 Apr 2016, 4:52 pm

green0star wrote:
So while on all this talk of non-binary, agender, bigender, etc, how many of you guys are out to your families about it? My folks are super religious and are anti gay, 2 gender only type of people so obviously with that being said after about 4 years of having known about this within myself I still haven't told them.


I told my (religious) mom before a knew the words agender and non-binary.
It wasn't a big deal either.
We were talking about my transsexual friend and that it might have something to do with autism.
Then i just told her "I don't feel like a woman either" and "I don't have it as bad as him".
I think it wasn't a big deal to her because it wasn't a big deal to me.
And she knows me , so it's probably not that weird to her.
And because i don't have it as "bad" as my friend.



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30 Apr 2016, 10:58 am

^ Well that sounds like it went pretty well xD I'm sure as long as you don't put a title on it then maybe it would be easier to explain. Because once a religious set of parents looks up the terms "genderqueer" and "non-binary" they will think you are devil possessed or something o-o



slave
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04 May 2016, 7:12 pm

I am humbled by how little of this discussion I understand. :oops:
I have had several friends in the LGBTQ community, but we didn't discuss this topic thoroughly(which I now regret).

Can someone direct me to a "primer" on this topic as I would like to understand your community better?

Many thanks for helping. :D



Dulin
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05 May 2016, 5:12 am

slave wrote:
I am humbled by how little of this discussion I understand. :oops:
I have had several friends in the LGBTQ community, but we didn't discuss this topic thoroughly(which I now regret).

Can someone direct me to a "primer" on this topic as I would like to understand your community better?

Many thanks for helping. :D


What do you mean with "primer"?



slave
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07 May 2016, 6:36 pm

Dulin wrote:
slave wrote:
I am humbled by how little of this discussion I understand. :oops:
I have had several friends in the LGBTQ community, but we didn't discuss this topic thoroughly(which I now regret).

Can someone direct me to a "primer" on this topic as I would like to understand your community better?

Many thanks for helping. :D


What do you mean with "primer"?


From Late Middle English: from medieval Latin primarius (liber) 'primary (book)' and primarium (manuale) 'primary (manual)'.

- an introductory explanation to the overall topic

- like an overview for someone who doesn't know the topic

:D



Dulin
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08 May 2016, 4:25 pm

slave wrote:
Dulin wrote:
slave wrote:
I am humbled by how little of this discussion I understand. :oops:
I have had several friends in the LGBTQ community, but we didn't discuss this topic thoroughly(which I now regret).

Can someone direct me to a "primer" on this topic as I would like to understand your community better?

Many thanks for helping. :D


What do you mean with "primer"?


From Late Middle English: from medieval Latin primarius (liber) 'primary (book)' and primarium (manuale) 'primary (manual)'.

- an introductory explanation to the overall topic

- like an overview for someone who doesn't know the topic

:D


I don't know of any "manual" about it. Though I am sure that your local LGBTQ association has all the information you might ever need. Some associations have books of all the different queer LGBTQ+ identities, that not even I know of. I am queer and got a crash course about it once :lol: I never thought there was much of a problem with LGBTQ+ issues, because well, "I don't have problems" (until someone points them out to me).

I'll gladly discuss the topic thoroughly with you if you wish and give you an overview.



slave
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08 May 2016, 5:51 pm

Dulin wrote:
slave wrote:
Dulin wrote:
slave wrote:
I am humbled by how little of this discussion I understand. :oops:
I have had several friends in the LGBTQ community, but we didn't discuss this topic thoroughly(which I now regret).

Can someone direct me to a "primer" on this topic as I would like to understand your community better?

Many thanks for helping. :D


What do you mean with "primer"?


From Late Middle English: from medieval Latin primarius (liber) 'primary (book)' and primarium (manuale) 'primary (manual)'.

- an introductory explanation to the overall topic

- like an overview for someone who doesn't know the topic

:D


I don't know of any "manual" about it. Though I am sure that your local LGBTQ association has all the information you might ever need. Some associations have books of all the different queer LGBTQ+ identities, that not even I know of. I am queer and got a crash course about it once :lol: I never thought there was much of a problem with LGBTQ+ issues, because well, "I don't have problems" (until someone points them out to me).

I'll gladly discuss the topic thoroughly with you if you wish and give you an overview.


Thanks.

Does Cisgender = hetero?
What does + refer to?
What does non-binary mean?(i read the Urban Dict. but i don't trust it)
Can you explain the "masculine" dressing and behavior of some lesbians?
Can you explain the "feminine" dressing and behavior of some lesbians?

:oops: :oops: :oops: I know I am ignorant of your community and I am embarrassed by my own questions :oops: :oops: :oops:

Pls forgive me.
I do want to learn.



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09 May 2016, 2:04 am

Quote:
Does Cisgender = hetero?
What does + refer to?
What does non-binary mean?(i read the Urban Dict. but i don't trust it)
Can you explain the "masculine" dressing and behavior of some lesbians?
Can you explain the "feminine" dressing and behavior of some lesbians?


If I may take a stab at it?

Cis-gender is just the opposite of trans-gender. It means your internal sense of sex/gender matches the one assigned at birth, at least enough that it doesn't go against cultural expecations. The Latin prefixes were historically borrowed from organic chemistry, AFAIK. When talking about trans people, a complementary name was needed for non-trans people. But also, if "normal" was used for everyone else, it created an inherent bias in the conversation. So it's more neutral or unbiased to use the two equal prefixes.

The + in LGBTQ+ simply means "anyone else who doesn't fit into an assumption of a pure sex & gender binary". Sometimes used as shorthand to include Questioning & Intersex (LGBTQQI), and sometimes other acronyms, too.

Non-binary...is the opposite of binary. 150 years ago it was assumed that there were exactly two sexes, male and female. And it was assumed that a male was only sexually attracted to a female, & vice-versa. And of course, all men saw themselves as manly men. A pure, biological binary. Like digital logic, there could be no other states. Non-binary acknowledges that when you chart out any sexed or gendered attribute, the values - for an individual or population - fall on spectra or many spectra, typically in some sort of bell curve. Each attribute for each person charts out differently. Some, more differently than others. Non-binary as an adjective would be someone who does not fit the social assumption of a male-female binary, or someone who does not identify with those rigid categories (and their expectations).

Some lesbians dress masculine. Some dress feminine. 30+ years ago there was more of a social construct around butch and femme lesbians, but that's partly because it was how non-gender atypical people could fit gay couples into their worldview. You *had* to have a "man" and a "woman". That said, many women do prefer more masculine clothing, and a more masculine way of moving through the world than say, the Victorian ideal of femininity. And some prefer to go much further. Could be because they don't like the bias against women in our culture, could just be that they are more neutral or even masculine in their (still female) self identity. But it doesn't mean they have to be lesbians. There are also straight butches who love to do manly things and wear manly clothes and drink manly drinks. Yes, there were butch-femme lesbian couples back in the day, and there still are. But there are butch-butch couples and femme-femme ones, too. And every combo in between. For some reason those last few confuse people who were brought up in a rigid, binary world. Femmes are lesbians who embrace whatever the current expectations are for femininity. As you can see, there is no connection between gender expression, identity and sexuality!

Also, much of the opposite is true for feminine men as well, but there is the effect of the social gradient of expectations. It's somewhat okay for a woman to want to 'better herself' by being slightly more masculine - that is climbing the hierarchy, after all. Much more frowned upon for men to do the opposite and "lower" themselves to being perceived as feminine.


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Cactustelefonogato
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09 May 2016, 9:07 pm

Thanks god somebody made this thread! Seeing only binarist ppl on this site made me feel pretty uncomfortable tbh...
I'm a DFAB agender person :)


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slave
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10 May 2016, 4:32 pm

Edenthiel wrote:
Quote:
Does Cisgender = hetero?
What does + refer to?
What does non-binary mean?(i read the Urban Dict. but i don't trust it)
Can you explain the "masculine" dressing and behavior of some lesbians?
Can you explain the "feminine" dressing and behavior of some lesbians?


If I may take a stab at it?

Cis-gender is just the opposite of trans-gender. It means your internal sense of sex/gender matches the one assigned at birth, at least enough that it doesn't go against cultural expecations. The Latin prefixes were historically borrowed from organic chemistry, AFAIK. When talking about trans people, a complementary name was needed for non-trans people. But also, if "normal" was used for everyone else, it created an inherent bias in the conversation. So it's more neutral or unbiased to use the two equal prefixes.

The + in LGBTQ+ simply means "anyone else who doesn't fit into an assumption of a pure sex & gender binary". Sometimes used as shorthand to include Questioning & Intersex (LGBTQQI), and sometimes other acronyms, too.

Non-binary...is the opposite of binary. 150 years ago it was assumed that there were exactly two sexes, male and female. And it was assumed that a male was only sexually attracted to a female, & vice-versa. And of course, all men saw themselves as manly men. A pure, biological binary. Like digital logic, there could be no other states. Non-binary acknowledges that when you chart out any sexed or gendered attribute, the values - for an individual or population - fall on spectra or many spectra, typically in some sort of bell curve. Each attribute for each person charts out differently. Some, more differently than others. Non-binary as an adjective would be someone who does not fit the social assumption of a male-female binary, or someone who does not identify with those rigid categories (and their expectations).

Some lesbians dress masculine. Some dress feminine. 30+ years ago there was more of a social construct around butch and femme lesbians, but that's partly because it was how non-gender atypical people could fit gay couples into their worldview. You *had* to have a "man" and a "woman". That said, many women do prefer more masculine clothing, and a more masculine way of moving through the world than say, the Victorian ideal of femininity. And some prefer to go much further. Could be because they don't like the bias against women in our culture, could just be that they are more neutral or even masculine in their (still female) self identity. But it doesn't mean they have to be lesbians. There are also straight butches who love to do manly things and wear manly clothes and drink manly drinks. Yes, there were butch-femme lesbian couples back in the day, and there still are. But there are butch-butch couples and femme-femme ones, too. And every combo in between. For some reason those last few confuse people who were brought up in a rigid, binary world. Femmes are lesbians who embrace whatever the current expectations are for femininity. As you can see, there is no connection between gender expression, identity and sexuality!

Also, much of the opposite is true for feminine men as well, but there is the effect of the social gradient of expectations. It's somewhat okay for a woman to want to 'better herself' by being slightly more masculine - that is climbing the hierarchy, after all. Much more frowned upon for men to do the opposite and "lower" themselves to being perceived as feminine.


Thank you for your well-considered and always articulate reply.

So let me re-state a few things to see if I am accurately understanding.

So Cisgendered is any person hetero or LGB whose gender(felt and expressed) matches the gender that society expects of them based on their genitalia at birth. It is a gender-based issue only, not a intersex or sexual pref. term.

So + refers to all humans who reject or question the (obviously incorrect) notion that only 100% males and 100% females exist, having no options in between those exclusive states.

...including cisgendered heteros who understand that gender/sexual pref./and sex are not simplistic dichotomies but in fact are a very complex(and potentially fluid) spectra collectively known as a Non-Binary perspective.

The butch vs. femme notion will become an anachronism once a societal Non-Binary understanding is reached. The learned will view all humans as expressing their own felt individuality of gender/sex/sexual pref. as they, through they lifespan shift/learn/grow/change in their self-understanding.

Please correct or make further clarification regarding anything I've written.
My only goal is to overcome my ignorance and to accurately understand.

:)



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12 May 2016, 12:49 am

You got it, slave!

Traditionally when cisgender, heterosexual ("cis-het") people are part of the acronym it has been under the label "Ally" but that was because the whole thing grew out of systematic social (and legal, and economic, and..) oppression. As did 'butch-femme'. Times are changing so quickly - and while I don't know what will become of those reactionary terms and concepts, it will be interesting when such labels are no longer part of any sort of struggle. They'll just be descriptive categories, I suppose, sort of like "tall" and "green-eyed".


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slave
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18 May 2016, 5:05 pm

Edenthiel wrote:
You got it, slave!

Traditionally when cisgender, heterosexual ("cis-het") people are part of the acronym it has been under the label "Ally" but that was because the whole thing grew out of systematic social (and legal, and economic, and..) oppression. As did 'butch-femme'. Times are changing so quickly - and while I don't know what will become of those reactionary terms and concepts, it will be interesting when such labels are no longer part of any sort of struggle. They'll just be descriptive categories, I suppose, sort of like "tall" and "green-eyed".


Thank you kindly!

sry was afk for a while

:D