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Dawn Crow
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04 May 2016, 6:37 am

Context: I was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome at age 10. Oddly, I never had issues making friends and none of them ever suspected I had Aspergers. I scored well above average on body language recognition and similarly my understanding of people was far above average.

I have spoke to other aspies in real life, but I couldn't find any who had decent social skills. Some could barely pass as normal, but that was about as close at it got. Around 1-2 years ago I tried finding other aspies online like me, but they were the same as those I met in real life.

To put it into perspective, a few weeks ago I was teaching a guy in his 30s how to manage his employees while also explaining why things may have unfolded the way they did. And my advice worked...I'm barely 20 =/ There are numerous other examples I could give.

Recently I spoke to my psychiatrist (who agreed that I was far above average) and told them I thought the diagnosis may be incorrect. I went on to say that the original diagnosis was predominantly 'crap' my parents didn't understand at the time; I could even explain why all but one of the features listed were untrue. Anyway, according to my psychiatrist I do have aspergers but I'm an 'unknown' because of how "intelligent" (I dislike the word) I am.

I'm posting here to ask if there are others like me with above average social skills? Or do you think my psychiatrist is wrong?

All replies are welcome.



SocOfAutism
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04 May 2016, 7:45 am

Yes, there are lots of aspies and auties who "pass" as neurotypical. People on the autism spectrum may have above normal, below normal, or average intelligence.

Lots of people on the autism spectrum make friends and a lot of people are even popular. Many people on the autism spectrum are not aware that they are autistic because autism never caused a problem significant enough for them to get a diagnosis. They may suspect that they are autistic, or may not have any idea.

Your psychiatrist may be right, you may be on the autism spectrum. However, this other tidbit about the intelligence is absolutely incorrect. That hints of knowledge from the 1970s or before.

I suggest you get a second opinion from a doctor with more recent knowledge about adults on the autism spectrum. I also suggest you spend some time reading up on what autistic adults have to say about themselves and how they describe autism.

Nice to have you here! Thanks for contributing!



Chichikov
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04 May 2016, 8:00 am

From what you've posted you don't seem to meet the diagnostic criteria, no. You'd need a far more in-depth proper examination probably involving the input of your parents to get an answer either way.



spinelli
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04 May 2016, 8:20 am

I don't think she is either.



kraftiekortie
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04 May 2016, 8:25 am

I have decent social skills---sometimes.

Under stress, I deteriorate pretty rapidly in the social skills department.

But I believe, most of the time, especially more recently, that my social skills deficits don't stand out

Except, like I said, when I feel stressed, when I have to do more than one thing at once.



Dawn Crow
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04 May 2016, 10:10 am

SocOfAutism wrote:
Yes, there are lots of aspies and auties who "pass" as neurotypical. People on the autism spectrum may have above normal, below normal, or average intelligence.

I see the need for socially acceptable behavior, but I dislike the strict adherence to that belief that some hold; as if any deviation is unacceptable. I think it's a shame when a person's unique and individual quirks are lost in their endeavor to appear 'normal'.

SocOfAutism wrote:
Your psychiatrist may be right, you may be on the autism spectrum. However, this other tidbit about the intelligence is absolutely incorrect. That hints of knowledge from the 1970s or before.

I suggest you get a second opinion from a doctor with more recent knowledge about adults on the autism spectrum. I also suggest you spend some time reading up on what autistic adults have to say about themselves and how they describe autism.

Will do -- thanks.

Chichikov wrote:
You'd need a far more in-depth proper examination probably involving the input of your parents to get an answer either way.

Unfortunately my parents aren't able to see the past in a different light. First they deny it, and then they get angry and aggressive. It would be easy to disprove them, however by doing so they'd realize that my degradation or breakdown (at age 10) was the result of their misjudgment. To sum it up briefly, I wiped my personality and built a new one over the subsequent years.



League_Girl
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04 May 2016, 10:18 am

SocOfAutism wrote:

Many people on the autism spectrum are not aware that they are autistic because autism never caused a problem significant enough for them to get a diagnosis.



That doesn't make sense because to be autistic, the symptoms do have to cause you a significant impairment. If they don't limit you or have an impact on your life, then you are not autistic by medical definition and wouldn't fit the criteria. Many people do things that are in the criteria but it doesn't cause them an impairment so therefore it wouldn't be a symptom. I also think it's very possible to have many features of autism and still not be autistic because they don't impact you. For example, when I was little, it would always bother me if my teacher would change the seating arrangement. I wanted everything to stay the same. But I never had a meltdown about it nor would it ever ruin my days despite being bothered every day by the seating arrangement. So therefore I don't think that would have counted as it being autism because it didn't give me distress except that it annoyed me everyday but it wasn't significant enough. I remember hearing in my autism group it's about how we express ourselves and how we handle it and react and that is how a diagnoses works and what makes it a symptom.


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VegetableMan
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04 May 2016, 10:22 am

I have pretty decent social skills and can be gregarious when I'm around others who share my interests.


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04 May 2016, 10:26 am

You can search DSM IV or ICD 10 criteria for Asperger.
http://www.aspergers.com/aspcrit.html



mikeman7918
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04 May 2016, 10:31 am

The Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnostic criteria included the following:

A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive, see text):

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.

3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.


Since you don't seem to have this, I would guess that your diagnosis is wrong. Your psychiatrist doesn't seem very knowledgeable about autism with that intelligence comment.

I can't pass as normal most of the time and my social skills are terrible yet I have derived physics equations for fun, I am great with logic circuit design and computer programming, I am great with computers, I often see details that others don't, I have a great memory, I am great at spacial reasoning, and I can solve a 7x7x7 Rubik's Cube in under 20 minutes. At the same time though I often act like an 8 year old, I have trouble with executive functioning, I get upset when my routine is broken, I often have no idea what's going on in a social situation, I am sometimes hard to communicate with, I have trouble with language processing, and I have a lot of anxiety related problems. Weather I would be classified as intelligent or unintelligent depends on what parts of me a person sees. If your psychiatrist doesn't realize this sort of thing then I wouldn't trust their oppinion about an autism diagnosis and I think it would be good for you to get a second professional oppinion.


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BeaArthur
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04 May 2016, 11:53 am

Dawn Crow, I'm curious. For what problem are you seeing a psychiatrist?


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Dawn Crow
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04 May 2016, 12:43 pm

BeaArthur wrote:
Dawn Crow, I'm curious. For what problem are you seeing a psychiatrist?

ADHD



helloarchy
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04 May 2016, 12:54 pm

I saw the title of this thread and thought "HA! Good one!".



BeaArthur
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04 May 2016, 1:04 pm

Dawn Crow wrote:
BeaArthur wrote:
Dawn Crow, I'm curious. For what problem are you seeing a psychiatrist?

ADHD


Okay, those two diagnoses are often confused, or they may co-occur in the same person.

I'm inclined to believe your psychiatrist's observation that you do have Asperger's, he is not saying that just to be cruel. Why not ask him which signs and symptoms he sees, instead of asking us our opinion?

If a person is very intelligent but does have autistic brain development, they could grow up being good with others, having friendships, and being accurate in understanding what others are thinking, if they were fortunate enough to have good parenting and/or good supportive services either in school or in a clinic.

But that doesn't "fix" the brain to make it non-autistic. It just means that the person has been able to compensate. The autism may come out more evidently when a big stressor occurs (death of a family member, starting a new job, etc.) and there is less ability to cope. What often happens then is autistic "burnout" where the previous high level of functioning is lost under new circumstances.

Good luck, you sound bright and interesting, welcome to the forum!


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Dawn Crow
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04 May 2016, 2:30 pm

mikeman7918 wrote:
A. Persistent deficits in social communication and social interaction across multiple contexts, as manifested by the following, currently or by history (examples are illustrative, not exhaustive, see text):

1. Deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, ranging, for example, from abnormal social approach and failure of normal back-and-forth conversation; to reduced sharing of interests, emotions, or affect; to failure to initiate or respond to social interactions.

2. Deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction, ranging, for example, from poorly integrated verbal and nonverbal communication; to abnormalities in eye contact and body language or deficits in understanding and use of gestures; to a total lack of facial expressions and nonverbal communication.

3. Deficits in developing, maintaining, and understanding relationships, ranging, for example, from difficulties adjusting behavior to suit various social contexts; to difficulties in sharing imaginative play or in making friends; to absence of interest in peers.


I'll elaborate on what might fit into those three points in my case.

1. I can't recall a time I experienced emotional contagion (the sharing of emotion), but I never had difficulty understanding other people's perspectives. On rare occasions I became irritated when someone was angry, but by that point I was fed up with their behavior. I have a large absence of emotion; both good and bad. Yawning is contagious for for me. Apart from that, nothing else applies here.

2. Barely noticeable lack of non-verbal communication, but that's only when I'm not into it. It also depends on what reaction is desired from the audience; do I want them to be engaged and pay attention? Eye contact is fine; was never a problem for me. I'm a bit more lively when people are around because I can rapidly analyse and modify my expressions as needed, but when I'm alone I look dead.

3. Currently I have no friends, but it's a conscious choice. I don't experience loneliness. I'm focusing my time and energy on studying and self-improvement; friends are of low importance to me right now, so I haven't bothered.

I've mentioned all of the above to my psychiatrist, but they said it was normal for some aspies. I had heard that some do experience a poverty of emotion, so it seemed true at the time

BeaArthur wrote:
I'm inclined to believe your psychiatrist's observation that you do have Asperger's, he is not saying that just to be cruel. Why not ask him which signs and symptoms he sees, instead of asking us our opinion?

If a person is very intelligent but does have autistic brain development, they could grow up being good with others, having friendships, and being accurate in understanding what others are thinking, if they were fortunate enough to have good parenting and/or good supportive services either in school or in a clinic.

But that doesn't "fix" the brain to make it non-autistic. It just means that the person has been able to compensate. The autism may come out more evidently when a big stressor occurs (death of a family member, starting a new job, etc.) and there is less ability to cope. What often happens then is autistic "burnout" where the previous high level of functioning is lost under new circumstances.

Good luck, you sound bright and interesting, welcome to the forum!


Thanks for the welcome.

I intended to ask them, but it slipped my mind during the last appointment and the next one is a month or so away. Due to my ignorance I had little reason to doubt them, so I wanted to ask here first.



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04 May 2016, 3:42 pm

This is interesting!

I would like to throw out two tidbits.

I had a friend that she didn't know she was autistic UNTIL she changed her environment a lot. Turns out people in her environment were extremely accomodating to her and would do things (that she didn't realize b/c autism) to make things easier for her/explained stuff away so that she got along very well and was even pretty popular if not "quirky" and people got along well. But she was kept in a VERY secluded environment that never changed essentially. While this was great for her, when she left it dissipated essentially. She found that although she was very bright and articulate, she couldn't get along else where. HOWEVER, this wasn't an issue for her until she was like 24/25. That's because her family and everyone around her created one hell of an artificial environment (but unfortunately weren't able to generalize these things for her). And there were tiny signs and symptoms before, but she didn't realize it until much later. Also, she is much more mild.
So, there's that.

And for me, I had HUGE problems from the autism, but also this was complicated from other things like I have prosopagnosia and tourettes (very different but had a big impact on me). ALL OF THESE THINGS went unnoticed. I was told I did them on purpose (Hint: I wasn't). I was told all of my tactile issues/ sensory defensiveness etc. was my fault.
So, I would dissociate and I kind of developed a much more NT-like outside personality to deal with the real world. I suppressed almost all my stims and tics (it was very difficult and painful- did I mention painful?? lol)
Also, my mom was very good and insistent at teaching me some social skills and I read a lot to compensate. So, I can (if I want to) mimic very very well (in specific situations).
So compensatory social prowess in adulthood or as a teenager even in the right environment I believe isn't in and of itself indicative enough to refute a diagnosis.

Also, I was talking to my aspie friend about this but- NTs don't have an explicit understanding of their social norms- it's intuitive(!) and easy for them to pick up. Aspies learn the same things explicitly and by consciously taking perspective and memorizing and building on memorization but its time-consuming and (generally) difficult to pick up.
However, I think that if Aspie can basically come to understand (and are motivated and "intelligent" enough) to memorize and throughly the social lexicon and interactive dance and vocabulary - the societal grammar if you will- then you can potentially be much better even than the average NT at being social.
For example, there are a lot of NTs that aren't that great at social norms and stuff that's not utterly basic. Another point is that all of these social norms and socializing are culturally-dependent. So, you won't understand the social norms of another country- and why we have all the cross-cultural issues that we have in the world :lol:

So, all this to basically say that just because you are good now at socializing doesn't take the cake so to speak against having an ASD diagnosis.
However, I would say autism, once you know what it really entails, is very easy to spot and get a feel for. If you FEEL autistic then you probably are. If you don't feel autistic- you probably aren't. It's hard to fake autism and visa-versa as so many on WP can attest to (myself included). :D

I feel like the presentation of ones autism is so intertwined with so many other variables (especially the co-morbids) that it muddies the "clinical" picture of what autism looks like or what people presume it to present as. So that's something to take into consideration as well.

Example, I have Tourettes (which family still manages to magically ignore even when I twitch & spasm quite dramatically and unstoppably in public for minutes lol- the power of denial :roll: ) and that makes me seem strange and out of place like autism does, but it's not part of my autism- BUT people might call it stimming even though it is not at all, my tics and stims are totally different & for different reasons .

Although, I disagree a bit that autism HAS to cause serious problems or discomfort or things like that, but I understand that clinically yes for a "proper diagnosis" it usually does.

You don't "sound" too autistic to me- in particular if you feel you don't fit the criteria. But also I think you would need to elaborate a little.