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Darmok
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05 Dec 2016, 7:19 pm

The socialist dictators Chavez and Castro are together in Hell, but their people still suffer under their crimes:

Venezuela to introduce bigger bills amid soaring inflation

Venezuela's central bank has said it will issue higher-denominated currency notes mid-December. The South American country is facing an acute economic crisis as its inflation is expected to surpass four digits next year.

Venezuela will introduce six new bills ranging from 500 to 20,000 bolivars, the OPEC nation's central bank said in a statement on Sunday.

Currently, the largest-denominated Venezuelan note is 100 bolivars (9.4 euros), which is worth just around two US cents on the black market. A two-liter soft drink bottle can cost 25 times that amount.

The socialist-run economy is on the verge of collapse as its currency has lost 67 percent of its value on the black market, falling to 4,587 bolivars per US dollar, according to Dollar Today, a tracking agency.


http://www.dw.com/en/venezuela-to-intro ... =en-tco-dw

In other news, "Press Freedom is Dying in Venezuela":
http://www.dw.com/en/press-freedom-is-d ... a-18236992


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BaalChatzaf
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05 Dec 2016, 7:22 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Hate to burst your bubble but socialism has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of poor people or poverty in general. Capitalism is directly responsible for concepts like poverty. Poverty is a capitalistic construct.

There were poor people long before there was capitalism. What did the Carpenter say: The poor you shall always have among you? That goes back 2000 years. They did not have capitalism back then.


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Kraichgauer
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05 Dec 2016, 11:43 pm

BaalChatzaf wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Hate to burst your bubble but socialism has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of poor people or poverty in general. Capitalism is directly responsible for concepts like poverty. Poverty is a capitalistic construct.

There were poor people long before there was capitalism. What did the Carpenter say: The poor you shall always have among you? That goes back 2000 years. They did not have capitalism back then.


Well, they certainly had trade, private enterprise, and in lieu of slaves, they hired freemen or semi-freemen to work for wages. It was an earlier phase of capitalism.


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Darmok
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05 Dec 2016, 11:52 pm

Image


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Dr_Manhattan
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06 Dec 2016, 4:50 am

Shrapnel wrote:
American Liberalism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Socialism. Socialism taken to it’s ideological extreme becomes Fascism. At the heart of both ideologies is the principle that the need of the State outweighs the need of the individual. Individualism must be suppressed, as the good of the State is paramount.

Conservatism on the other hand, worships at the altar of individualism. The State gets only whatever rights the individual chooses to grant it. Conservatives believe that the State works for them and not the other way around.

Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.


Fascism is amorphous, mostly. Usually, it's a right wing philosophy.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

Things like race and nation are central beliefs. A lot of people, like Steven Crowder, say Hitler was socialist because the party's name was National Socialist Worker's Party. By that metric, China's a democracy because "Democratic Republic of China". The only people arguing semantics, in this case, are the ones making the former claim.



RushKing
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06 Dec 2016, 8:13 am

Shrapnel wrote:
Capitalism is the only economic system that cannot be imposed by force. It is the system that evolves when people are free to pursue their own prosperity.

Capitalism is just another economic system that is imposed by force.



firemonkey
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06 Dec 2016, 8:45 am

Unfettered capitalism is a vehicle for abusing the disadvantaged,disabled and poor. Those who believe in it are selfish and uncivilised.
The needs of society as a whole should always over ride individual wants especially if those individual wants are detrimental to the welfare and well being of others.



Ganondox
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06 Dec 2016, 2:33 pm

More like don't be a sucker for Libertarianism.


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marshall
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06 Dec 2016, 2:43 pm

What annoys me is when ideologues like the OP continually lambast the worst forms of socialism, yet don't address the social and moral failings of laissez faire capitalism.



OlivG
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06 Dec 2016, 2:54 pm

So, the Nordic countries should be hellholes. Instead they are the top of the world by many metrics largely thanks to socialism, in particular when compared to the US which has some of the highest income inequality and lowest social mobility (so much for the American dream) among the developed nations.

Thankfully time will take care of this and once the boomers are (finally) dead the more progressive and informed generations will gradually get in power.



marshall
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06 Dec 2016, 2:58 pm

OlivG wrote:
So, the Nordic countries should be hellholes. Instead they are the top of the world by many metrics largely thanks to socialism, in particular when compared to the US which has some of the highest income inequality and lowest social mobility (so much for the American dream) among the developed nations.

Thankfully time will take care of this and once the boomers are (finally) dead the more progressive and informed generations will gradually get in power.

It's no use arguing with people like the OP who are 100% indoctrinated with market fundamentalism. It's like a cult in the US and it's new spreading to Europe as well unfortunately.



Jacoby
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06 Dec 2016, 3:27 pm

Scandinavia is not doing that great, its not the Shangri-La American leftists make it out to be and they aren't where they are today because of 'socialism', they have a generous welfare system for which they are highly taxed for but they are not any more socialist than the US and in a lot of ways have freer markets than we do. However unfettered immigration will destroy the 'Nordic system' if in short order if they allow it, they cannot exist in a political/economic union with the whole of Europe in the long term and vice versa. Grass is always greener for some, some of these idiots even think it's greener in Cuba and Venezuela. It is Scandinavia's commitment to the free market that has gotten it to become so wealthy, if they were actually committed socialists in the same vein of Venezuela then most of them would of never built themselves out of poverty after WWII and would probably resemble the Eastern Bloc.

Lets not forget that these are tiny countries and one of which literally struck oil so comparing them to a country of over $300M does not make a lot of sense, maybe a better comparison would be like Minnesota? We should learn from their successes as well as their mistakes, we have to take note of the shortcomings to get an accurate picture of things. Scandinavia's current suicidal policies will squander away what they built for themselves, they are small countries and small decisions will have oversized consequences for them in the long run. Also lost in these comparisons is the fact that Americans have much higher living standards than your typical European.



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06 Dec 2016, 5:25 pm

I think it can be argued that the Scandinavian countries are the best example for the perfect balance of capitalism and socialism. Countries that swing too far to the left, or too far to the right in economic systems find it only creates disaster and despair.


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Dr_Manhattan
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06 Dec 2016, 6:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it can be argued that the Scandinavian countries are the best example for the perfect balance of capitalism and socialism. Countries that swing too far to the left, or too far to the right in economic systems find it only creates disaster and despair.


That's...actually a good way of putting it. Never thought of it like that.



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06 Dec 2016, 8:57 pm

Dr_Manhattan wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it can be argued that the Scandinavian countries are the best example for the perfect balance of capitalism and socialism. Countries that swing too far to the left, or too far to the right in economic systems find it only creates disaster and despair.


That's...actually a good way of putting it. Never thought of it like that.


8)


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07 Dec 2016, 10:41 am

I was reading this last page yesterday, and since I was having a chat with someone who grew up and worked in a socialist system and then went on to work in a capitalist system. I told them "You know, I hear from these Americans who talk a lot about how unfree people are in socialist systems." They looked at me and said "That's crazy! We had much more freedom in socialism than in capitalism."


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