The leader of muslim scholars: muslims can't leave islam

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I posted those videos in another thread the other day:


Must-watch.






in Egypt:


Funny:



This program claims that atheism is rising in Saudi Arabia, to about 5% of young people according to a study, and theory reason they claim (in the program) is due to the wahabbi extremist policy.
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I would disagree. Look at these countries Iran, your country of Lebanon and Tunisia.

I mean in Iran their is a large movement of moderates that aim to take back society from hardliners. Just look at their 2009 elections and the level of backlash against their own government. It is very clear their is a large number of people even in the most conservative Islamic countries that dislike their oppressive governments.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are both reforming for the better. In Pakistan they recently took steps against Honour killings in the past voted in their first female Prime Minister, Bhutto after she promised to repeal oppressive Islamic laws.

Tunisia just voted in a Secularist government.

The fact is we have a large silent minority or majority in many of these countries that know exactly what's going on even and that its bad even if they don't dislike Islam. We got to put our faith into them

All these are true, but you missed the point.

I am talking about the actual faith in Islam.

That's not too much of a problem so long as you don't let a text like the Koran dictate your values.

Excellent, so all we need to do is stop muslims from adhering to the koran. Piece of cake.

Maybe what I said sounded silly but their is a logic to it.

If we highlight the repression of many laws and how terrible they are we could see them ending. This is what happened in Pakistan they elected a female Prime Minister who promised to do way with many bad Islamic laws despite the majority of the population being Muslim it can happen. I mean just look at Christianity for Christ sake, their are people who incorporate the teachings of evolution despite it contradicting the bible. People can still follow their faith even if they dislike one of two of the teachings.

Oh, I wasn't questioning the logic. The logic was sound. It just seemed to be lacking in feasability. What is a muslim who does not adhere to the koran?

While I'm not that great a fan of Sam Harris, he's right on the money when he states that religious moderation is a product of secular knowledge and scriptural ignorance. Even most people who call themselves Christian believers have a rather vague idea of what that means. They'll have some idea about Jesus and his ideas, and something about sins being forgiven and being nice to people and so on. You'll find very few Christian adherents who care about mixed fabrics, tattoos and shellfish all being forbidden.

If, similarly, Islam came to the point where most people's idea of being a muslim entailed growing a beard and giving to charity and not much else, I could see it existing within a functioning society. But in the state that it is today, and with the attitudes prevalent among muslims being what they are, I am very doubtful. Things are reaching a boiling point, and the people who need to be held to account still are not.

Yeah Muslims and even us can still advocate for change feasibly. But when we do we cannot make it about Islam that is wrong. I wish more people in the West understood that. Criticizing Islam has never ever worked and certainly won't work in France all it does alienate a large community of people. An attack on a lack of women's rights is kind of okay since it is about equality, an attack on Islam isn't since all it does is angers people to a personal level.

On average, it seems as if more people of the Muslim faith take the Koran literally than Christians take the Bible literally.

Another problem is that skepticism pertaining to sacred works like the Koran seems to be a very Western concept. It is not really part of the Islamic worldview. This would make it difficult for people NOT to take the Koran at its word; it is blasphemy to be skeptical.

I disagree. Criticism of religion is the first and probably the most important step towards a society that respects freedom of speech. You can't have a free society where some ideas or some people are immune from being questioned. And yes, I've heard the emotional flaliling from muslims about how the prophet is more dear to them than their own mothers. On that, I would first question their priorities, and then suggest that their overemotional attachment to an ancient desert warlord has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the ideas he espoused are compatible with a modern and functional society. Those ideas have to stand or fall on their own merit, or lack thereof.


I'd actually question some of the alleged inequalities with regard to women in the muslim world. My position is that islam is oppressive to pretty much everyone, save perhaps for a selected elite. You don't see a lot of Saudi princesses in headscarves, do you? Women in Saudi Arabia aren't allowed to drive, but the consequence of that is that they have to be chauffeured wherever they want to go. When the question of lifting that ban was raised, women protested en-masse and said they'd only accept that if they could have "women-only" lanes to drive in. Not exactly the voice of the terribly oppressed. The reason why there was a "bring back our girls" campaign against Boko Haram was that all the boys had already been shot. The female-on-male domestic abuse capital of the world is Egypt. I'd suggest that saying islam is oppressive to women is making the problem approximately 40% smaller than it actually is.


I agree that Frances various bans aren't going to work, I think they're heavy-handed, ineffective and run counter to the standard of principle a free society should hold itself to. But at the same time, I can't really blame them for trying, especially considering some of the more recent events. And if I shared a creed with the people driving trucks into crowds of people, or who shot people in nightclubs, I would first take a good, long look at myself, and then I'd at the very least not be surprised and offended when people looked at me with a degree of suspicion. It might be unfair, but it's not surprising.

I agree with you, Wolfram--100%. I really do. Especially as to the first paragraph.

But there are many people in the Islamic faith who just do not believe in the "Western" values which we espouse, and which you stated above. It does not mean they are terrorists, or that Democracy, etc, is a foreign concept with them. It's just that Islam and Western-style thought are somewhat in conflict.

If we "preach" in this way it would seen as being an imposition.

We have to be smarter about this, and be culturally sensitive. Just like we can't force devout Muslims to take out a loan.

We have to put it in "their" terms. Terms which would be palatable to them.

As for Iran.... they really didn't do any step "forward" , they are just trying to recover what was lost. The 2009 demonstration was a failure.

The only reason why the reformists won the elections is because the Khamenei wanted them to win, in order to appeal better to the US for the nuclear deal.

Iran was 'far' from Islam before the current regime, and it was a civilized and modernized society.







It is a society that went backward 1000 years.

They still need a lot of recover, and this can't be called a progress before they return to how they were.

Lebanon? Since the foundation of Hezbollah in the 80s, the Shia community went through a fast islamist transformation as scarily fast as what Iran went through, Hezbollah is an offshoot of the worst side in Iran and they're 100 times more radical the reformists in Iran, they're direct equivalent of Revolutionary Guards and Al Basij.
When I was a child I never seen a girl of my age who was veiled at school, neighborhood or anywhere - I clearly remember that only the eldest women (60+ years old) were veiled by choice after doing the pilgrimage, the veiling customs/culture was totally different 20 years ago or so - today it's common to see veiled teens and even children in the shia community here.

Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 15 Feb 2017, 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know. I lot of secular Turks still call themselves Muslim when they don't believe any of the crappy parts.

They're funny; I have seen them drinking alcohol and eating pork yet they call themselves Muslims.

My Turkish coworker there asked me once "so you have Casinos in Lebanon?" - I was like "Yeah, and there's plenty." (thanks to the Christian community no doubt) - I was surprised to learn that gambling and casinos are forbidden on Turkey soil. He explained it's allowed in the turkish part of Cyprus; the area there became like Las Vegas for Turks. He wants to visit Lebanon mainly for the casinos lol.

To be effective, criticism has to come from within the Islamic culture itself. It can't be seen as coming from "the West".

Some alcoholic drinks are common all over Turkey. Even in conservative Muslim areas, especially in the Black Sea region, it is common to drink raki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rak%C4%B1). Eating pork isn't so common.


I didn't know gambling was prohibited. I've never really been a gambler though.