What exactly is the pronoun 'They' used for?

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naturalplastic
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18 Jun 2016, 12:44 pm

zkydz wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I use it to mean "more than one person other than myself." .

No. What you described is not "they". Its "we".

That is incorrect. "We" is inclusive of the speaker.
"We are going to the beach." The speaker/narrator and other people.

"They" is exclusive in that it excludes the speaker/narrator from the group. "They are going to the beach. The speaker/narrator is staying home to do things."

Kraftie specifically said "more than one person other than [himself]." Ergo, he is correct.

Sorry. Not correct.

Niether Krafty, nor any one else in the English speaking world ever uses it the way you describe.

You use "they" when you mean "a group of people" who (a) dont not include yourself (ergo not first person), AND (you forget) do not include "you" (the person being addressed) (ergo not second person either), but would be "he" or "she" if they were a single individual (ergo third person, and plural).

About "we".

And "we" can either include the person being addressed ("we are going to the beach"),or NOT include the person being addressed ("we dont like your attitude,so we are gonna beat the tar outta you!"). But whether it includes the person being addressed or not "we" is still "first person plural"

"We" can include the person being addressed, or not. Either way it is still first person singular.

zkydz
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18 Jun 2016, 1:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Sorry. Not correct.

You use "they" when you mean "a group of people" who (a) dont not include yourself (ergo not first person), AND (you forget) do not include "you" (the person being addressed) (ergo not second person either), but would be "he" or "she" if they were a single individual (ergo third person, and plural).

About "we".

And "we" can either include the person being addressed ("we are going to the beach"),or NOT include the person being addressed ("we dont like your attitude,so we are gonna beat the tar outta you!"). But whether it includes the person being addressed or not "we" is still "first person plural"

"We" can include the person being addressed, or not. Either way it is still first person singular.

I'm calling BS on your definition for this reason:

No matter how you try to describe it, your description is, in part, actually my definition,

Quote:

You use "they" when you mean "a group of people" who (a) dont not include yourself,AND (you forget) do not include "you".

And, therefore Kraftie is correct. And, contrary to your statement I did not forget it:

Quote:

"They" is exclusive in that it excludes the speaker/narrator from the group.

No matter how you choose to split it into different subgroups, it does not invalidate it, especially when I am saying what you say that I do not say.

And, well, I guess since you used a definition I used, just not your exact wording, I guess you are not part of the English speaking world that you speak of?

Quote:

Niether Krafty, nor any one else in the English speaking world ever uses it the way you describe.

Seriously, you cannot describe what someone is doing in your own definition, and then say they are wrong.

Us/We...inclusive of speaker/narrator

Them/They...exclusive of speaker/narrator

That is the core. And, you can get into all the BS you want about the 'royal we' and other crap like that. But, you know, even that does not fly since royalty always spoke for the nation and not a personal point of view. Therefore in those instances, it is actually correct since it was referring to a national opinion and therefore a plurality.

And, finally, this little gem:

Quote:

And "we" can either include the person being addressed ("we are going to the beach"),or NOT include the person being addressed ("we dont like your attitude,so we are gonna beat the tar outta you!").

Umm. that is a complete fallacy as We, in your example, is including the speaker/narrator. Neither us/we or them/they require how the other person is being addressed. They both do require the participation or the non-participation of the speaker /narrator.

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naturalplastic
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18 Jun 2016, 2:22 pm

About "we".

If I intend to beat you up I would say "I am gonna tan your fanny". The "I" would be first person singular, and the "you" would be second person singular.

But if I and my gang of buddies collectively are going to tan your fanny then I would say "we are gonna tan your fanny". The "we" would NOT include you, and would be a plural version of "I". Therefore "we" would be "first person plural".

But if you joined forces with us to rumble with the rival gang then I might say to you "we are gonna kick their asses". In that instance "we" would include you (the person being addressed). But that just means that you are part of multitude that includes "me" so it is still "first person plural".

Nothing complicated about it.

Now back to "they".

The problem I have with what Krafty said is a combination of what he said (its slightly off) and how he said it ( there is a more precise way to say it).

What he said was "I use it to mean a group of folks who dont include me".

It would have been both quicker and more precise if he had said "'they' is the third person plural pronoun".

Its more precise because Krafty (nor you nor I) actually use it for any "group of folks that dont include" the speaker.

If you were on stage behind a lectern addressing a crowd of 100 folks, and you wanted that crowd to "give a hand to our guest of honor" who is about to walk on stage how would you address them? Would you say "I want them to give him a big round applause!" ?

The crowd you're addressing is (a) group of people, and (b) they dont include you the speaker. So according to Krafty (and you) you would say "I want them to give him a big round of applause".

But of course you wouldnt say it that way.

What you would say would be "I want you to give him a big round of applause".

You address them as "you". In Spanish it would be "ustedes" which is the plural version of "usted" the formal "you". English lost the plural version of "you" centuries ago (though some American dialects have reinvented it, but thats another story). So unlike most European languages we use the same "you" for both plural and singular.

The point is that when you speak to a crowd you address them as "you" (second person), not "they" which is third person.

Ergo "they" means a group of folks that dont include either you OR the speaker (which is why its called "third person").

kraftiekortie
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18 Jun 2016, 2:57 pm

"We" is "myself and at least one other person."

"They" is "at least two people other than myself, with myself specifically excluded."

Sometimes, both are used with pets, too.

zkydz
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18 Jun 2016, 3:25 pm

NP, not gonna get sucked down a semantic debate while arguing the same side of the fence.

Again, split the BS all you want, you are wrong. Kraftie was correct in general usage and specific usage. You are simply attempting to dissect something until you can find a way to say you are correct.

The fact that you are using the receiver as 'they' is factually wrong and you are conflating different aspects in an attempt to be 'right.'

So, my response from this point on is "Whatever.'

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Edenthiel
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18 Jun 2016, 4:52 pm

'They' is also singular and has been used as such for around 600 years.

From the economist.com, Feb. 2014:

Quote:

How so? English has a gap in its pronoun set. We often need to refer to an unknown person (“someone”, “anyone”, “a doctor” and the like). If we later use a pronoun for that same person, of unknown or unimportant sex, some traditionalists say that “he” is the best solution—someone is singular, so the pronoun must be too. But while he matches in number, it is a mismatch in gender: there is a strong chance the unknown referent is female. This “traditional” solution is flawed.

But traditionalists need not panic. Singular they has appeared in the finest English writing for centuries.

“And whoso fyndeth hym out of switch blame, they wol come up…” (Chaucer, "The Pardoner’s Prologue")

“And everyone to rest themselves betake” (Shakespeare, "The Rape of Lucrece")

“If ye from your hearts forgive not every one their trespasses” (King James Bible, Matthew 18:35)

“I would have everybody marry if they can do it properly” (Jane Austen, "Mansfield Park").

(These examples, and many others, come from the "Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage".)

Brief review of why it is needed in the English language:
http://grammarist.com/usage/they/

It has also been recognized as a singular pronoun, but specifically referring to people who do not identify within a male/female binary:
http://www.americandialect.org/2015-wor ... gular-they

Nice history / overview here:
http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html

Historically it was accepted and used as a singular pronoun. Interestingly, it was when women in Western culture began organizing and working toward social and legal equality that grammarians began a backlash, and insisted that it should not be used and instead, "he" be used for men, "she" for women...and "he" in a generic sense to mean everyone, anyone, groups, and so on. So rejection of the singular "they" has really only been in force for the last 100-150 years, and never completely accepted.

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Ganondox
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18 Jun 2016, 6:28 pm

It's supposed to only be used for plural groups. My preferred gender neutral pronoun is xe.

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naturalplastic
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19 Jun 2016, 7:06 am

zkydz wrote:

My only point is that "they" is "third person plural",or it can also be crudely shoehorned into meaning "third person singular" if the speaker is trying to avoid assigning gender for whatever reason.

What Krafty said was "'they' means 'any group of folks that does not include me'".

What Krafty SHOULD have said was ""they' means any group of folks that does not include me, or you."

That is "they" cannot include either the speaker or the person being addressed because it is niether first, nor second person. In both of its two usages it is third person.

kraftiekortie
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19 Jun 2016, 7:57 am

Yep....should have included the possibility of "you" LOL

They is also used for singular collective entities.

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20 Jun 2016, 4:04 pm

^Who knew that grammar and pronouns and stuff was so complicated? So would would you use for an ambiguously gendered elf wizard? It's rather hard to refer to him/her in a conversation unless you use his/her nickname, which is V.

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naturalplastic
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20 Jun 2016, 4:13 pm

Kuraudo777 wrote:

Obviously an "elf wizard named V" would be referred to as "Elvis"!

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20 Jun 2016, 6:24 pm

As someone who is agender, I prefer people use they as a pronoun for me (though she is usually used since I don't really nitpick about it and not many people know I'm agender).

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20 Jun 2016, 6:32 pm

A new pronoun should be created for neutral gender. Other languages have neutral gender within them. This would be linguistically consistent.

"They" is third-person plural, almost exclusively. Gender is irrelevant here.

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23 Jun 2016, 7:30 am

Edenthiel is correct. 'They' is used to refer to several people, or someone whose gender is unknown. I have no idea how anyone could get through life only hearing it in the plural. Alternative pronouns like 'xie' are way too alien to become common any time soon, so using 'they' is both respectful of those uncomfortable with 'he/she', and pragmatic.

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23 Jun 2016, 8:22 am

I feel cognitive dissonance when I refer to a single person as "they."

That's actually never happened. To me, it's purely plural.

It's certainly better than "it," though.

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23 Jun 2016, 8:32 am

LittleLu wrote:

Genderfluid people, androgynes, multigender, trigender, basically anybody who is nonbinary and doesn't fit in the realm of "male" or "female" but doesn't fit with the "he/him" or "she/her" pronouns either.

That's what YOU think. The REAL experts know otherwise:

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary wrote:

they - pronoun, plural in construction:

1a: used as third person pronoun serving as the plural of he, she, or it or referring to a group of two or more individuals not all of the same sex

1b: often used with an indefinite third person singular antecedent.

2 : used in a generic sense

So, unless an individual has a multiple personality disorder or a sentient internal parasite, it is improper to refer to that individual as "they".

What's next? Will LGBT individuals start referring to themselves as 'We'? Will "They be gay" and "We be gay" be considered proper grammar? I shudder at the thought of such arrogant malappropriation of the English language. :shaking:

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