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So when does being a 'leftist' become a crime?

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Raptor
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05 Dec 2016, 9:47 pm

Meistersinger wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
If you had quoted my whole statement, you would have seen I said "those conservatives." That implies not all conservatives. I'm referring to the kind of people I argue with at church (upper middle class small businessmen), but who I still remain friendly with. In fact, one of them thanked me for the intellectual argument.


Do they actually tell you that they hate the poor? Or did you "deduce" that all on your own?

Also, reread your own comment, you started out addressing a specific set of conservatives, but the comment I objected to was much more generalized.


You, obviously, have never experienced the dogma of the so-called prosperity gospel. While it's mostly preached by televangelists like Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, and Pat Robertson, I know quite a few fundamentalist, as well as "mainline" pastors in my area locally that preach the same bilge. Case in point: I grew up in the Churches of God--General Conference. I stated elsewhere that I left because they flat out told me I was going to hell because of the music I was listening to. Well, in addition, my father was the congregational treasurer. Do you know how much help he got from them when he lay on his deathbed, 30 years ago? NOTHING! No financial help, no spiritual help, no emotional support from the church, or even his brothers or sisters! Ditto with my mother, and she's been gone 5 years. At least the Lutherans, and, to a lesser extent, the Catholics, are at least willing to lend a helping hand. The Amish are the same way, except they will only help those within their denomination. Ditto with the Mennonites, except they will reach out to the world through the Mennonite Central Committee.

In short, these churches will not come out and flat out say they think people are poor through their own fault. But, you look at the actions of its leaders, and their actions speak louder than words.


It's going to depend more on the individual church/congregation than the denomination. As a kid we went to a small Methodist church (while we lived near it) where the people were close. Other bigger churches of the same denomination that we went to when we lived elsewhere weren't so close.


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Meistersinger
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05 Dec 2016, 11:18 pm

Raptor wrote:
Meistersinger wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
If you had quoted my whole statement, you would have seen I said "those conservatives." That implies not all conservatives. I'm referring to the kind of people I argue with at church (upper middle class small businessmen), but who I still remain friendly with. In fact, one of them thanked me for the intellectual argument.


Do they actually tell you that they hate the poor? Or did you "deduce" that all on your own?

Also, reread your own comment, you started out addressing a specific set of conservatives, but the comment I objected to was much more generalized.


You, obviously, have never experienced the dogma of the so-called prosperity gospel. While it's mostly preached by televangelists like Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, and Pat Robertson, I know quite a few fundamentalist, as well as "mainline" pastors in my area locally that preach the same bilge. Case in point: I grew up in the Churches of God--General Conference. I stated elsewhere that I left because they flat out told me I was going to hell because of the music I was listening to. Well, in addition, my father was the congregational treasurer. Do you know how much help he got from them when he lay on his deathbed, 30 years ago? NOTHING! No financial help, no spiritual help, no emotional support from the church, or even his brothers or sisters! Ditto with my mother, and she's been gone 5 years. At least the Lutherans, and, to a lesser extent, the Catholics, are at least willing to lend a helping hand. The Amish are the same way, except they will only help those within their denomination. Ditto with the Mennonites, except they will reach out to the world through the Mennonite Central Committee.

In short, these churches will not come out and flat out say they think people are poor through their own fault. But, you look at the actions of its leaders, and their actions speak louder than words.


It's going to depend more on the individual church/congregation than the denomination. As a kid we went to a small Methodist church (while we lived near it) where the people were close. Other bigger churches of the same denomination that we went to when we lived elsewhere weren't so close.


The one item I neglected to mentioned that mom and dad were the black sheep of their respective families. I know that, because my brothers and I were also targets of that discrimination, from both sides of the family. Dad was literally looking from the outside in, since he got mom pregnant with me out of wedlock. While he married mom, to save face, he was never allowed to forget that he married beneath the family standard. My maternal grandfather was the town drunk. She was an unwanted child, according to her, from all the stories she told of all the physical, verbal and mental abuse she endured growing up.

Problem is, all the churches in the area (Windsor Borough, Windsor Township, Lower Windsor Township, Freysville Borough and Red Lion Borough, PA knew both families and knew mom and dad were the black sheep of their respective families. Most of the time, we were persona non grata in whatever church we attended. Most of the congregations were either Methodist, Reformed, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, or Churches of God in North America (the forerunner of the Churches of God--General Conference). Quite a few of those congregation considered us trailer trash, and flat out told me and my brothers we'd never amount to anything (Even though I got as far as earning a Master's degree, I'm still derided as a lazy, worthless sonofabitch, because I'm collecting SSDI/Medicare/Medicaid/SNAP, due to mental and developmental defect. (Medicaid is paying my Part B and Part D Medicare premiums, since I'm on a Special Needs Plan, due to diabetes, and I'm only getting $16.00/month in SNAP benefits, which doesn't even get me a half gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, and 1 lb of extra lean Hamburg.)

So, in my experience, the more fundamentalist the congregation, in my puny mind, the more they preach that the poor deserve to be marginalized.



Kraichgauer
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05 Dec 2016, 11:51 pm

Raptor wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I actually think Raptor and Kraichgauer are male-bonding, and should just go get a beer already!

If they didn't like each other underneath at all, I doubt that they would be arguing like this.

No, I think Kraichgauer is just going through that "change" they all go through at about that age. You know, the mood swings and hot flashes that we've witnessed evidence of here recently. Surely it'll pass in time...

Now, back to what we were trying to discuss before Kraichgauer ATTACKED me.
:jester:


I emerged from my chrysalis long ago, so I've undergone my change already. I presume you are still crawling on multiple legs, and chomping on leaves?


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Kraichgauer
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05 Dec 2016, 11:53 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I actually think Raptor and Kraichgauer are male-bonding, and should just go get a beer already!

If they didn't like each other underneath at all, I doubt that they would be arguing like this.


He lives on the other side of the country, in states with regressive reputations, so I hardly think I'd be caught there alive.
HAH! See how elitist I am, Raptor?!?!


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marshall
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06 Dec 2016, 3:57 am

Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Franklin also thought Palatine Germans and Swedes should not be allowed to come to America, because they weren't white enough. Just because old Ben said it doesn't mean it's always of much use.


Notice that you didn't actually address the argument, you merely mentioned some unrelated opinions of Franklin's and used them to justify dismissing everything else he'd ever said; lazy, but true to form.

I addressed the argument as baloney. If everyone could climb out of poverty who would be doing the minimum wage jobs?

Are you not familiar with developments in robotics?
If they can be mass produced to where they are cost effective they'll be doing just about anything the average minimum wage worker is doing and without the human related hassles. Of course with the left being the left they'd soon be championing for the rights of robots... :roll:

What will replace those unskilled jobs then? Not everyone is wealthy enough to afford a college degree. Not everyone is intelligent enough to obtain a skilled degree. Those are just facts. The point is the system itself leaves
a chunk of the population under the bus. If robotics replace all unskilled labor then the government would need to supply a basic income (i.e. handouts according to you). Just repeating over and over again that everyone needs to pull themselves up by the bootstraps doesn't make you appear intelligent or honest. If there is a systemic problem in the economic system that leads to unemployment, then that particular problem needs to be addressed by society in some way. That is my criticism of Benjamin Franklin's supposed quote. I really have trouble believing Benjamin Franklin wouldn't agree with my argument if he were alive today.

Do peole actually read what thye are relying to?
You asked: " If everyone could climb out of poverty who would be doing the minimum wage jobs?"
I replied that robots could.
They are in use now and will become more prolific over time. The telegraph made the pony express obsolete and put people out of jobs. Should we have halted technology and just to keep the pony express and save those jobs?

You purposely avoid addressing my main point and bicker over a tangent. This is why you are an obnoxious person to debate with. You are not serious. I'll just assume you have no answer.



The_Walrus
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06 Dec 2016, 6:01 am

It appears that the thread is not salvageable.