Page 1 of 2 [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

tick
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2014
Age: 51
Gender: Female
Posts: 74
Location: Missouri

05 Dec 2016, 12:41 pm

Yesterday I attended the UU church. For anyone not familiar I need to explain that this is a very liberal church with no particular religion but rather a shared philosophy of justice and inclusiveness. So, yesterday the sermon was read by a member of the congregation and was a sermon that originated in another church about three years ago. It was titled Fittest of the Survival or Human Rights. After an introductory about how George W Bush's macho behavior didn't work this is what came next.
"Well, I have a theory about that mysterious discrepancy between being the fittest to survive and respecting the rights of others. According to this theory, concern for human rights is made possible through a very sophisticated expanding of the scope of the human brain. This kind of enhancement does not occur in many animals. It is true that it does occur in the chimpanzee’s brain as well as in the human brain, but to a much less advanced stage of development.
Some scientists call this capability in humans, "social intelligence." Among other things, it has a
survival value, because it enables humans to live in peace with more of their fellow human
beings. And it does occurs to some degree in almost everybody.
However, scientists have drawn on some of the few people in whom it does not occur, in order to demonstrate its existence in all the others Simon Baron-Cohen, a psychologist at Cambridge University, demonstrated this by studying a group of people afflicted with the ailment known as "autism."

Any thoughts on how to respond? My first response yesterday was to cry in the bathroom. Now I feel I need to let them know the harm this sermon could cause. What I'm looking for are ideas for correcting the misrepresentation of Autism in the UU church, the last place I thought would have this problem.



DavidTheWitch
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 29
Location: Homestread Fl

05 Dec 2016, 12:45 pm

Prolly just tell em the sermon was offensive to... Explain not all people with Autism feel it is a aliment?



johnnyh
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 328

05 Dec 2016, 6:14 pm

So do paranoid schizophrenics and some forms of bipolar. Why single out autism? (I am asking you this question, what has happened that caused them to single out autism? Who do you think the blame rests with? Which community?)


_________________
I want to apologize to the entire forum. I have been a terrible person, very harsh and critical.
I still hold many of my views, but I will tone down my anger and stop being so bigoted and judgmental. I can't possibly know how you see things and will stop thinking I know everything you all think.

-Johnnyh


tick
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2014
Age: 51
Gender: Female
Posts: 74
Location: Missouri

05 Dec 2016, 8:08 pm

I have no idea why Autism except for absolute complete ignorance on the minister and lay readers part that Autistics lack empathy more often than the rest of the population. It certainly doesn't describe me and it's not anything that science or observation back up. Sure I screw up reading people, but that has never meant I didn't care about the rights and feelings of others. Don't know where in 2014 the minister who wrote this got these horrid ideas. I really don't quite know how to go about writing a letter to people who seem to be so terribly misinformed. Where does one even start?



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,242
Location: Long Island, New York

06 Dec 2016, 3:39 am

This is a typical misrepretation of Cohen's theories. Right now there is a backlash against Cohen's theories amoung autistics. While I personally find his theories are often partial explaninations the idea that he believes Autistics have "no empathy" is wrong. In fact he is for the neurodiversity movement.

Q&A: Psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen on Empathy and the Science of Evil - Time Magazine 2011

Quote:
Zero empathy refers to people at the extremely low end of the scale. They tend to be people with personality disorders, particularly antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). I focus quite a lot on psychopathy [the extreme form of ASPD] and also on two other personality disorders, borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder.

The ‘negative’ is meant to be shorthand for this being negative for the individual but also for the people around them. It’s meant to contrast with what I call ‘zero positive’ empathy, which effectively describes the autistic spectrum.

[Autistic people] struggle with empathy just like zero negatives but it seems to be for very different reasons. I’m arguing that their low empathy is a result of a particular cognitive style, which is attentive to details and patterns or rules, which in shorthand, I call systemizing.

If we think about the autism spectrum as involving a very strong drive to systemize, that can have very positive consequences for the individual and for society. The downside is that when you try to systemize certain parts of the world like people and emotions, those sorts of phenomena are less lawful and harder to systemize. That can lead to having low empathy, almost like a byproduct of strong systemizing.


Quote:
People often think that autistic people are dangerous, like psychopaths, when they hear this idea that they have “no empathy.”

In a way, that was one of my motivations for writing the book. Low empathy is a characteristic of many different conditions or disorders. Often books are written where they either focus on psychopathy or autism but [not both].

We have to look at them side by side, and when we do that, we see that they are very different and it’s important to bring that out.

Is it the case, then, that autistic people are not good at the “mind reading” part of empathy, in terms of predicting people’s behavior and feelings, while psychopaths are able to do that but are not able to care?

I think the contrast between these two conditions provides some evidence for that dissociation within empathy. People with psychopathy are very good at reading the minds of their victims. That’s probably most clearly seen in deception. You have to be good at mind reading before it would even occur to you want [to deceive someone]. So you can see the cognitive part of empathy as functioning very well, but the fact that they don’t have the appropriate emotional response to someone else’s state of mind, the feeling of wanting to alleviate distress if someone’s in pain, [that suggests that] the affective part of empathy is not functioning normally.


In this 2016 lecture he discusses eugenics and neurodiversity
:?


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


bowtruckle
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2016
Age: 24
Gender: Female
Posts: 47
Location: Rivendell

06 Dec 2016, 3:49 am

underwater
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Sep 2015
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,904
Location: Hibernating

06 Dec 2016, 3:55 am

I think the whole sermon sounded very negative. I'm no fan of Bush, for sure, but I generally don't like it when somebody holds a sermon criticising someone. I don't know if it makes it better if the person being criticised is there or not. The worst is being there and not feeling able to speak up.

The fascinating thing is the person holding the sermon who assumes that there are no autistics in the audience, or that any autistics wouldn't be hurt, or he simply doesn't care if any are hurt.

People who speak from a pulpit need to be aware of the power of that pulpit, and the damage they can do.

IMHO, this person is not showing much social skills......and even though I don't think it is intended to attack autistics, by portraying autistics as people who don't care about others, he is basically giving people a free pass for being mean to autistics. Not nice.


_________________
I sometimes leave conversations and return after a long time. I am sorry about it, but I need a lot of time to think about it when I am not sure how I feel.


johnnyh
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 328

06 Dec 2016, 7:21 am

To ASpartofme,

How does that apply to schizophrenia or alcohol induced brain damage where theory of mind is also impaired? Autism, unlike what Sacha's cousin implies, is not unique in that area.


_________________
I want to apologize to the entire forum. I have been a terrible person, very harsh and critical.
I still hold many of my views, but I will tone down my anger and stop being so bigoted and judgmental. I can't possibly know how you see things and will stop thinking I know everything you all think.

-Johnnyh


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,242
Location: Long Island, New York

06 Dec 2016, 2:54 pm

johnnyh wrote:
To ASpartofme,

How does that apply to schizophrenia or alcohol induced brain damage where theory of mind is also impaired? Autism, unlike what Sacha's cousin implies, is not unique in that area.


Simon partially answered that question. There are many different causes of lack of empathy and they present differently. I have not read the book he was promoting so I do not know if he answered those particular causations. I do not have nearly enough knowledge of schizophrenia or alcohol induced brain damage to answer those questions.

My purpose in writing the post was not to be a Simon Baron Cohen surrogate but to debunk the increasingly common belief among autistics that he believes autistics have "no empathy" and thus his "no empathy" theories have been very harmful to the view the public has of Autistics. The "no empathy" view of autistics predates Simon and it has been very harmful to autistics. His use of the term "zero" when he meant "low" was not the right thing to do and has contributed to the misrepresentation of what he believes which has been harmful. ND movement supporters can and should publically disagree with his theories if they so believe, but they also need to understand that he is a strong supporter of the movement and agrees with its core principles.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


johnnyh
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 328

06 Dec 2016, 7:37 pm

tick wrote:
I have no idea why Autism except for absolute complete ignorance on the minister and lay readers part that Autistics lack empathy more often than the rest of the population. It certainly doesn't describe me and it's not anything that science or observation back up. Sure I screw up reading people, but that has never meant I didn't care about the rights and feelings of others. Don't know where in 2014 the minister who wrote this got these horrid ideas. I really don't quite know how to go about writing a letter to people who seem to be so terribly misinformed. Where does one even start?


You may think you have empathy, but what empathy is is something that is defined in my definition as a term for a brain process found in brain scans in non-autistic individuals when they look at someone performing a certain action that is not found in autistic individuals when looking at the same action.


_________________
I want to apologize to the entire forum. I have been a terrible person, very harsh and critical.
I still hold many of my views, but I will tone down my anger and stop being so bigoted and judgmental. I can't possibly know how you see things and will stop thinking I know everything you all think.

-Johnnyh


johnnyh
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 328

06 Dec 2016, 7:40 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
johnnyh wrote:
To ASpartofme,

How does that apply to schizophrenia or alcohol induced brain damage where theory of mind is also impaired? Autism, unlike what Sacha's cousin implies, is not unique in that area.


Simon partially answered that question. There are many different causes of lack of empathy and they present differently. I have not read the book he was promoting so I do not know if he answered those particular causations. I do not have nearly enough knowledge of schizophrenia or alcohol induced brain damage to answer those questions.

My purpose in writing the post was not to be a Simon Baron Cohen surrogate but to debunk the increasingly common belief among autistics that he believes autistics have "no empathy" and thus his "no empathy" theories have been very harmful to the view the public has of Autistics. The "no empathy" view of autistics predates Simon and it has been very harmful to autistics. His use of the term "zero" when he meant "low" was not the right thing to do and has contributed to the misrepresentation of what he believes which has been harmful. ND movement supporters can and should publically disagree with his theories if they so believe, but they also need to understand that he is a strong supporter of the movement and agrees with its core principles.


http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/bc249/papers ... 9_jadd.pdf

Simon Baron Cohen disagrees autistic individuals have emotional empathy either, or he thinks it is reduced.
This paper shows his belief personal distress at another's suffering is not the same as emotional empathy.


_________________
I want to apologize to the entire forum. I have been a terrible person, very harsh and critical.
I still hold many of my views, but I will tone down my anger and stop being so bigoted and judgmental. I can't possibly know how you see things and will stop thinking I know everything you all think.

-Johnnyh


DavidTheWitch
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 29 Nov 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 29
Location: Homestread Fl

07 Dec 2016, 10:34 am

Erm you people do realize she could just explain it wasn't true to the Church and have them apologize?



underwater
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Sep 2015
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,904
Location: Hibernating

07 Dec 2016, 2:26 pm

DavidTheWitch wrote:
Erm you people do realize she could just explain it wasn't true to the Church and have them apologize?


.....and come out as autistic to the entire church simultaneously?


_________________
I sometimes leave conversations and return after a long time. I am sorry about it, but I need a lot of time to think about it when I am not sure how I feel.


tick
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 17 Apr 2014
Age: 51
Gender: Female
Posts: 74
Location: Missouri

07 Dec 2016, 5:12 pm

Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. It was the first time I have ever posted and I was nervous about it. All the responses have helped me get a much better understanding of the situation and lots of thought on the subject of empathy.

The definition of empathy is- the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. I'm sure there are Autistic people who lack this but I don't see evidence that it is the autism at fault. It certainly isn't easy to do if you experience the world as chaos or have fewer clues about what's going on, but that is not the same as not having the capacity for empathy or caring about the rights of others.

I used to spend hours with a friend who also had an Asperger's diagnosis agonizing about what "lack of empathy" meant. Eventually I realized my confusion, and his, was because we didn't lack it. We just missed a lot and sometimes had weird reactions or delayed responses. We did have empathy. The latest research is showing this to be true. Of course plenty of us who have been diagnosed know we have empathy and some people even claim to have heightened empathy.

I have met so many allistic/NTs that show no signs what-so-ever of having empathy that it makes no sense to think it's a specifically Autistic characteristic. Also the ability to read faces has nothing at all to do with empathy. If it did then if you are blind you would also be lacking empathy.

Also, this diagnosis we share. What does it even mean? There is no blood test. Just mostly a set of behaviors being judged by some stranger. They have no right to imply that any of us are less than they.

What I am doing about Sunday's sermon is writing a letter explaining my feelings and why I feel that way. I am then offering the person the links to places such as The Thinking Person's Guide to Autism so they might have a chance to learn about the neurodiversity movement. This is the UU church, they advocate for the rights of marginalized groups daily. They fly the Gay Pride rainbow flag out front of the building, they have pagan's, and atheist, and transgender persons, and talk about Black Lives Matter, and have COEXIST bumper stickers on their cars. This sermon is entirely unexpected and not in line with the values of the church. I have come to the conclusion that misinformation about Autism is so wide spread that it must be that they simply are unaware.



johnnyh
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jun 2016
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 328

07 Dec 2016, 9:36 pm

tick wrote:
Thanks to everyone who responded to my post. It was the first time I have ever posted and I was nervous about it. All the responses have helped me get a much better understanding of the situation and lots of thought on the subject of empathy.

The definition of empathy is- the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. I'm sure there are Autistic people who lack this but I don't see evidence that it is the autism at fault. It certainly isn't easy to do if you experience the world as chaos or have fewer clues about what's going on, but that is not the same as not having the capacity for empathy or caring about the rights of others.

I used to spend hours with a friend who also had an Asperger's diagnosis agonizing about what "lack of empathy" meant. Eventually I realized my confusion, and his, was because we didn't lack it. We just missed a lot and sometimes had weird reactions or delayed responses. We did have empathy. The latest research is showing this to be true. Of course plenty of us who have been diagnosed know we have empathy and some people even claim to have heightened empathy.

I have met so many allistic/NTs that show no signs what-so-ever of having empathy that it makes no sense to think it's a specifically Autistic characteristic. Also the ability to read faces has nothing at all to do with empathy. If it did then if you are blind you would also be lacking empathy.

Also, this diagnosis we share. What does it even mean? There is no blood test. Just mostly a set of behaviors being judged by some stranger. They have no right to imply that any of us are less than they.

What I am doing about Sunday's sermon is writing a letter explaining my feelings and why I feel that way. I am then offering the person the links to places such as The Thinking Person's Guide to Autism so they might have a chance to learn about the neurodiversity movement. This is the UU church, they advocate for the rights of marginalized groups daily. They fly the Gay Pride rainbow flag out front of the building, they have pagan's, and atheist, and transgender persons, and talk about Black Lives Matter, and have COEXIST bumper stickers on their cars. This sermon is entirely unexpected and not in line with the values of the church. I have come to the conclusion that misinformation about Autism is so wide spread that it must be that they simply are unaware.


It's simple, empathy is whatever a neurotypical has when their brain shows activity in regions seeing another person do something that is absent in autistic individuals. THAT is what it is.


_________________
I want to apologize to the entire forum. I have been a terrible person, very harsh and critical.
I still hold many of my views, but I will tone down my anger and stop being so bigoted and judgmental. I can't possibly know how you see things and will stop thinking I know everything you all think.

-Johnnyh


The_Dark_Citadel
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

Joined: 20 Jul 2016
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 339

13 Dec 2016, 12:16 am

I don't do religion, but I always thought sermons were lessons from a religious text or notable person of that religion, not politics and off topic speeches about junk science.


_________________
If I were a knight, my name would be Sir Stimsalot.