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Restrained Autistic Student dies on bus

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androbot01
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24 Dec 2016, 12:44 pm

ZenDen wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
I think this is androbot01's true and very best attempt at showing compassion for others...it's just there doesn't seem to be much there (which may make his/her best efforts seem like trolling.

Of for heaven's sake. (Her best efforts, I'm a 46-year old woman.) What about compassion for the people who were trying to restrain him when he died. I can't imagine that they were not upset by his death. But for the people who work with these kids every day, you guys have no compassion. You presume evil intent and blame.


Kind of what I was talking about. Comparing this loss: a young man who died, and the trauma he went through to any temporary discomfort (your word:"upset") of the others on the bus. No sense of understanding or scale I can discern.

But trying; I sense trying to understand the difference between "upset" and dead. Upset??? You'll have to do better to convince me you didn't have a rugged early life.


These things do not exist exclusively of each other; that is, it is possible to have compassion for both at the same time.

And, what do you mean by "do better," I wasn't aware I did anything to challenge your opinion of me?



League_Girl
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24 Dec 2016, 12:48 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Quote:
Investigators believe Corona got into with another student and school workers who had to restrain him with the help of the bus driver.

At one point, police say the teen passed out.

Police said the school employees gave Corona CPR and called for medical help. Neighbors, near the corner of H and Victoria Streets in San Benardino, say they saw the bus pull over at around 5:45 p.m


CBS

It seems pretty clear to me. Corona was fighting and wouldn't stop. He was physically restrained because he was physically fighting with someone. It's a shame that he died. But I think the responsibility rests with Corona.

Autism is not a pass for physical violence.



Okay, that sounds like a freak accident then. I hate abuse so I feel for everyone who had to deal with it. Still sad for the parents though. I am sure the school staff are sad too. But I still wonder how one dies from being restrained and how he died. My opinion could still change if being given more detail.


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androbot01
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24 Dec 2016, 12:51 pm

League_Girl wrote:
My opinion could still change if being given more detail.

Mine could too, but the most recent article I can find indicates that they have found no fault with the support workers. It doesn't give detail citing the privacy of the family, which is understandable.



League_Girl
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24 Dec 2016, 12:57 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
So you're totally going to give him a pass for his own behaviour? I hope you realize that does nothing to empower autistic people.


Give him a pass for what, exactly? All the story says is that "Corona, who attended Bright Futures Academy, a Riverside school serving special-needs students, got into an altercation with another student and school employees on the bus, police said."

Altercation is a vaguely defined word but it suggests he was having an argument and was angry. It doesn't say that he assaulted people. It doesn't say that he did anything punishable by death.

Merriam Webster notes "altercation implies fighting with words as the chief weapon, although it may also connote blows <a loud public altercation>."

I hope you realize that you seem to be suggesting that merely being in an argument while autistic deserves the death penalty?

At least, it means that as much as what ASPartOfMe has posted is somehow disempowering autistic people by saying they shouldn't be killed for getting in arguments on the schoolbus.


Are you seriously arguing that no fight took place to initiate the restraint hold?

Quote:
CBS2’s Jeff Nguyen reported the teen — who had autism — died following a fight on the bus early Friday evening on his way home from school.

Investigators believe Corona got into with another student and school workers who had to restrain him with the help of the bus driver.

CBS

So shall we check the dictionary to see what "fight" means?



A fight can also be verbal.


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ZenDen
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24 Dec 2016, 1:01 pm

League_Girl wrote:
The article lacked too much detail for me to form an opinion. I feel sorry for the parents though who have lost their child. How do you die from being restrained? I wonder why he had to be retrained in the first place? Was he being aggressive so they had to restrain him to keep him from hurting others on the bus or did he not want to leave school so they had to drag him out there(not literally) and put him on the bus and hold him in the seat? Or did he not want to go to school so they had to drag him outside from his home to the bus and hold him in his seat? Could he have been self harming so they had to restrain him?


Restrain often means: An arm around a throat.



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24 Dec 2016, 1:14 pm

EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
...It's really not credible to deal with real life events from inside the confines of your own little world.

Sure, marginalization. Much easier than to accept fault. I am not the only one in a little world.

I am forced to say bluntly that if one cannot control one's physical attacks on others, then the consequences will be physical. This issue to me is an example of the disabled expecting too much from society, or to put it another way, Special Snowflake Syndrome. No one is so special that it's okay that they unpredictably attack other people. I believe that there are steps to take to avoid physical meltdowns, including medication. Not to use a tool that helps with such a condition is selfish. However, if these physical meltdowns cannot be controlled then one shouldn't be surprised when something like this unfortunate death occurs. Obviously the preceding comments are my own view and will surely be seen as heartless, but I think it is more heartless to ignore reality.


Does this philosophy apply to grand mal seizures as well?



Huh, I have had a grand mal seizure and I never attacked anyone. I was only on the floor with my lips blue and my eyes rolled back and it took 10 to 15 minutes for anyone to notice.


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ZenDen
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24 Dec 2016, 1:47 pm

androbot01 wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
I think this is androbot01's true and very best attempt at showing compassion for others...it's just there doesn't seem to be much there (which may make his/her best efforts seem like trolling.

Of for heaven's sake. (Her best efforts, I'm a 46-year old woman.) What about compassion for the people who were trying to restrain him when he died. I can't imagine that they were not upset by his death. But for the people who work with these kids every day, you guys have no compassion. You presume evil intent and blame.


Kind of what I was talking about. Comparing this loss: a young man who died, and the trauma he went through to any temporary discomfort (your word:"upset") of the others on the bus. No sense of understanding or scale I can discern.

But trying; I sense trying to understand the difference between "upset" and dead. Upset??? You'll have to do better to convince me you didn't have a rugged early life.


These things do not exist exclusively of each other; that is, it is possible to have compassion for both at the same time.

And, what do you mean by "do better," I wasn't aware I did anything to challenge your opinion of me?


And, what do you mean by "do better," I wasn't aware I did anything to challenge your opinion of me?

Earlier I had made a comment about children who, not experiencing compassion when young growing up, may grow into adult people who think little of compassion, but you didn't comment. (Just guessing you may fall in this group. Can be totally wrong.) Thus my statement.

And, as I'm unable to form an overall opinion of you, I only offer comment about your statements of opinion in this thread.



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24 Dec 2016, 5:12 pm

ZenDen wrote:
EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:

Obviously it's tragic when someone dies in this fashion, but violence begets violence.


You must be trolling.


Maybe not Ezra.

I think this is androbot01's true and very best attempt at showing compassion for others...it's just there doesn't seem to be much there (which may make his/her best efforts seem like trolling.

People that didn't receive any, or very little, compassion when growing up have a different definition of compassion than most (just ask me).

If a person never realizes this about themselves, they can't understand (and therefor they disbelieve) what we're saying.


In my opinion the statement and repeated conclusions simply don't have anything to do with the situation.



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24 Dec 2016, 5:18 pm

League_Girl wrote:
EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
...It's really not credible to deal with real life events from inside the confines of your own little world.

Sure, marginalization. Much easier than to accept fault. I am not the only one in a little world.

I am forced to say bluntly that if one cannot control one's physical attacks on others, then the consequences will be physical. This issue to me is an example of the disabled expecting too much from society, or to put it another way, Special Snowflake Syndrome. No one is so special that it's okay that they unpredictably attack other people. I believe that there are steps to take to avoid physical meltdowns, including medication. Not to use a tool that helps with such a condition is selfish. However, if these physical meltdowns cannot be controlled then one shouldn't be surprised when something like this unfortunate death occurs. Obviously the preceding comments are my own view and will surely be seen as heartless, but I think it is more heartless to ignore reality.


Does this philosophy apply to grand mal seizures as well?



Huh, I have had a grand mal seizure and I never attacked anyone. I was only on the floor with my lips blue and my eyes rolled back and it took 10 to 15 minutes for anyone to notice.


The point is, a grand mal seizure is something no one has control over. It's not an act as in an act of violence. It's something triggered by a neurological malfunction.



EzraS
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24 Dec 2016, 5:23 pm

ZenDen wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
The article lacked too much detail for me to form an opinion. I feel sorry for the parents though who have lost their child. How do you die from being restrained? I wonder why he had to be retrained in the first place? Was he being aggressive so they had to restrain him to keep him from hurting others on the bus or did he not want to leave school so they had to drag him out there(not literally) and put him on the bus and hold him in the seat? Or did he not want to go to school so they had to drag him outside from his home to the bus and hold him in his seat? Could he have been self harming so they had to restrain him?


Restrain often means: An arm around a throat.


Not in a situation like this. I feel pretty certain that the death was due to some other factor. I have seen autistic students restrained in similar similar situations and a choke hold is not something that would be applied. If it was some brand new worker who had little or no training, maybe that might happen. But that's not the case here.



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25 Dec 2016, 5:34 am

ZenDen wrote:
It appears to me some people lack empathy. They may not understand it or it just doesn't fir in with their peosonal philosophy. It's doubtful these people can or will change into more understanding persons.
...
People who try to blame such occurrences on sick people, and their illness, are definitely lacking in understanding and human compassion.

ZenDen wrote:
And, as I'm unable to form an overall opinion of you, I only offer comment about your statements of opinion in this thread.

I guess you could say the first quote is a general comment, but I think I can figure it was directed at me.

Anyway these two quotes are in contradiction of one another.

EzraS wrote:
In my opinion the statement and repeated conclusions simply don't have anything to do with the situation.

I don't know how you can keep saying that. The investigators have said that it appears to have been an accident.



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25 Dec 2016, 11:55 am

androbot01 wrote:

EzraS wrote:
In my opinion the statement and repeated conclusions simply don't have anything to do with the situation.

I don't know how you can keep saying that.


I bet you know perfectly well.



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26 Dec 2016, 7:11 am

Main Line autism school beats the odds, greets mid-century milestone

The Timothy school in the Philadelphia area has been a school for autistic children since the "refrigerator mother" days of 1966. It serves moderately to severely autistic children. I am positive they have seen thier share of violent meltdowns in the last 50 years. As far as I know no one has died while bieng restrained in thier care


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26 Dec 2016, 7:54 am

It's such common practice in such schools which I've attended my whole life. We're special needs and anything done to us is always under close scrutiny. Terms like violent meltdown or outburst, should not be viewed the same as someone losing their temper. But rather the result of someone being under extreme distress.

As far as death goes, I know of three students at the two schools I've attended, who died suddenly at school. Cardiac arrest, cerebral hemorrhage and severe asthma attack. I've come close to dying myself more than once. A lot of us moderate to severe autistics seem to have sketchy health issues.



Last edited by EzraS on 26 Dec 2016, 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

androbot01
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26 Dec 2016, 8:07 am

Okay, let's say you guys are right and the evil care workers murdered the kid deliberately. What is their motive?



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26 Dec 2016, 9:17 am

Like I said I do not know but if I would hazard a guess I would guess one of four general possibilities, deliberate cold blooded murder is not one of them.

1. Poor Training

2. They lost their temper and lost control

3. They were trying to hurt but not kill him

4. Preexisting medical condition

5. Some combination of 1 through 4

If two or three happened the workers need to be prosecuted, if 4 happened and the school knew about, it some administrators need to be prosecuted If 1 happened the school needs to be sued.

If the deceased had a preexisting condition but it was not known, should they have? This is complicated as people die from previously unknown conditions all the time. If the school hired quack doctors the probably should get sued, but even that is complicated if it is a public school as taxpayers might have not funded them properly.

If you think I am being harsh all I am doing is asking for accountability for professionals whose job description is partially about protecting students from themselves just as you want from the disabled students.


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