Robert Kennedy Jr. and vaccine safety review

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ASPartOfMe
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11 Jan 2017, 12:23 pm

Adamantium wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
In another thread I discussed the what I believe to be the catastrophic ramifications for autistics if proof of vaccines are found to cause autism, and proof of big pharma government collusion are found. In summary, Autistics would be mutants. No credibility for the nuerodiversity movement, no reason not to do everything to cure it and force people to take the cure. Claims that older autistics like myself have always been around but not seen would be widely perceived to be discredited. A Trump administration “rigging” the system to find an autism-vaccine link would have similar effects.


But the proof that much autism isn't caused by any kind of childhood environmental insult is already there in good studies. You can't have differences in fetal development of synapses in kids with autism and then suddenly say "the vaccine did it." It's BS (bad science.)

Everyone is a mutant including neurotypicals. Only people who don't understand genetics or evolution thinks mutation isn't a constant process.

To get the result you are outlining, they would have to lie about so much, I don't think it would work.


So many things that were once considered undeniable fact are considered ridiculous today. Never say Never. Trump becoming president later this month is proof of that. True or not if the Trump administration autism policy is based on suspicion or beliefs that vaccines cause autism and they can carry out that policy it will have an effect on many autistics. Do I think we are hopelessly doomed, no. Expressing a belief and turning it into enforced policy are two very different things. I do think I have legitimate reasons for worry.


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Adamantium
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11 Jan 2017, 12:50 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
In another thread I discussed the what I believe to be the catastrophic ramifications for autistics if proof of vaccines are found to cause autism, and proof of big pharma government collusion are found. In summary, Autistics would be mutants. No credibility for the nuerodiversity movement, no reason not to do everything to cure it and force people to take the cure. Claims that older autistics like myself have always been around but not seen would be widely perceived to be discredited. A Trump administration “rigging” the system to find an autism-vaccine link would have similar effects.


But the proof that much autism isn't caused by any kind of childhood environmental insult is already there in good studies. You can't have differences in fetal development of synapses in kids with autism and then suddenly say "the vaccine did it." It's BS (bad science.)

Everyone is a mutant including neurotypicals. Only people who don't understand genetics or evolution thinks mutation isn't a constant process.

To get the result you are outlining, they would have to lie about so much, I don't think it would work.


So many things that were once considered undeniable fact are considered ridiculous today. Never say Never. Trump becoming president later this month is proof of that. True or not if the Trump administration autism policy is based on suspicion or beliefs that vaccines cause autism and they can carry out that policy it will have an effect on many autistics. Do I think we are hopelessly doomed, no. Expressing a belief and turning it into enforced policy are two very different things. I do think I have legitimate reasons for worry.


I hear you.


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wilburforce
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11 Jan 2017, 6:08 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
The vax thing as been investigated under republican and democratic administrations. The likelihood that all the anti-vaxers, given their great diversity in other views, would find a Trump regime more trustworthy seems very low.

I don't have a lot of time for 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Or chemtrails, area 51 seekers, and Sandy Hook deniers.

There is an almost unlimited amount of crap people theorize about. The US government should not be supporting that activity. I certainly don't want a penny of my tax money going there!


Some people think it's a pressing question, I am not afraid of hearing people out.


Children are dying of preventable diseases because of these idiots. Their misinformed "opinions" on vaccinations have caused children to die. You should be afraid of giving them more of a platform to spread misinformation that puts the public in danger.


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nurseangela
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11 Jan 2017, 6:22 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
The vax thing as been investigated under republican and democratic administrations. The likelihood that all the anti-vaxers, given their great diversity in other views, would find a Trump regime more trustworthy seems very low.

I don't have a lot of time for 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Or chemtrails, area 51 seekers, and Sandy Hook deniers.

There is an almost unlimited amount of crap people theorize about. The US government should not be supporting that activity. I certainly don't want a penny of my tax money going there!


Some people think it's a pressing question, I am not afraid of hearing people out.


Children are dying of preventable diseases because of these idiots. Their misinformed "opinions" on vaccinations have caused children to die. You should be afraid of giving them more of a platform to spread misinformation that puts the public in danger.


Quit calling people idiots just because they don't agree with your line of thinking. I'm getting tired of it.

I, for one, would like to get rid of flu vaccines. Now they also have pneumonia vaccines (more than one) and shingle vaccines. Where does it stop? I get forced to get flu vaccines. The vaccines have other ingredients in them. When it comes to the flu, or pneumonia or shingles, I believe in natural immunity. Several times, they have come out and said the flu vaccine was useless, but I still have that crap inside me. Bunch of BS! Good old handwashing goes a long way - people should give it a try sometime.


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nurseangela
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11 Jan 2017, 6:32 pm

Thimerosal is still used in the flu vaccine.

http://www.yourlawyer.com/topics/overview/thimerosal

I don't go to the CDC or the FDA or any government site because they do not want you to know the truth about vaccines, otherwise, people wouldn't want to get them.


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Last edited by nurseangela on 11 Jan 2017, 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Misslizard
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11 Jan 2017, 6:38 pm

Sometimes they don't even work.
http://www.healthy.arkansas.gov/program ... Mumps.aspx
A little over a year ago I lost several pups to vaccine resistant parvo.Horrible.


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wilburforce
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11 Jan 2017, 6:52 pm

nurseangela wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
The vax thing as been investigated under republican and democratic administrations. The likelihood that all the anti-vaxers, given their great diversity in other views, would find a Trump regime more trustworthy seems very low.

I don't have a lot of time for 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Or chemtrails, area 51 seekers, and Sandy Hook deniers.

There is an almost unlimited amount of crap people theorize about. The US government should not be supporting that activity. I certainly don't want a penny of my tax money going there!


Some people think it's a pressing question, I am not afraid of hearing people out.


Children are dying of preventable diseases because of these idiots. Their misinformed "opinions" on vaccinations have caused children to die. You should be afraid of giving them more of a platform to spread misinformation that puts the public in danger.


Quit calling people idiots just because they don't agree with your line of thinking. I'm getting tired of it.

I, for one, would like to get rid of flu vaccines. Now they also have pneumonia vaccines (more than one) and shingle vaccines. Where does it stop? I get forced to get flu vaccines. The vaccines have other ingredients in them. When it comes to the flu, or pneumonia or shingles, I believe in natural immunity. Several times, they have come out and said the flu vaccine was useless, but I still have that crap inside me. Bunch of BS! Good old handwashing goes a long way - people should give it a try sometime.


It is idiotic (also unethical, horrific, callous, tragic, inarguably wrong, etc.) to let children die of easily preventable diseases. How could you possibly argue otherwise?


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nurseangela
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11 Jan 2017, 7:05 pm

wilburforce wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
The vax thing as been investigated under republican and democratic administrations. The likelihood that all the anti-vaxers, given their great diversity in other views, would find a Trump regime more trustworthy seems very low.

I don't have a lot of time for 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Or chemtrails, area 51 seekers, and Sandy Hook deniers.

There is an almost unlimited amount of crap people theorize about. The US government should not be supporting that activity. I certainly don't want a penny of my tax money going there!


Some people think it's a pressing question, I am not afraid of hearing people out.


Children are dying of preventable diseases because of these idiots. Their misinformed "opinions" on vaccinations have caused children to die. You should be afraid of giving them more of a platform to spread misinformation that puts the public in danger.


Quit calling people idiots just because they don't agree with your line of thinking. I'm getting tired of it.

I, for one, would like to get rid of flu vaccines. Now they also have pneumonia vaccines (more than one) and shingle vaccines. Where does it stop? I get forced to get flu vaccines. The vaccines have other ingredients in them. When it comes to the flu, or pneumonia or shingles, I believe in natural immunity. Several times, they have come out and said the flu vaccine was useless, but I still have that crap inside me. Bunch of BS! Good old handwashing goes a long way - people should give it a try sometime.


It is idiotic (also unethical, horrific, callous, tragic, inarguably wrong, etc.) to let children die of easily preventable diseases. How could you possibly argue otherwise?


I can see why people around here get mad at you and your responses.


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Adamantium
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11 Jan 2017, 7:25 pm

Moderating

Break!

Please return to your corners, ladies.

Reminder: The topic is "Robert Kennedy Jr. and Vaccine Safety Review" not "willburforce and nurseangela and their many faults, sins and deficiencies"

Should anyone persist in personalizing the debate, moderation will occur.

No hitting below the belt and protect yourself at all times.

Debate!


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11 Jan 2017, 7:48 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Moderating

Break!

Please return to your corners, ladies.

Reminder: The topic is "Robert Kennedy Jr. and Vaccine Safety Review" not "willburforce and nurseangela and their many faults, sins and deficiencies"

Should anyone persist in personalizing the debate, moderation will occur.

No hitting below the belt and protect yourself at all times.

Debate!


Am I the one who personalised this debate because I used the word "idiotic" to describe ignoring scientific evidence in the favour of letting children die of easily preventable diseases? Because as far as I can tell that is the textbook definition of idiotic behaviour. Was it wrong to use this word? How could I have worded my argument differently to make the same point but without it being "personal"? I would appreciate feedback on this because I have gotten into trouble for using this word before and I didn't quite understand why my usage was problematic then, and obviously I still don't.


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androbot01
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11 Jan 2017, 7:53 pm

I would like to see the evidence that the Earth revolves around the sun. And I don't want to hear it from any of these lying scientists. I want new blood to have a look at this issue.



Adamantium
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11 Jan 2017, 8:34 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Moderating

Break!

Please return to your corners, ladies.

Reminder: The topic is "Robert Kennedy Jr. and Vaccine Safety Review" not "willburforce and nurseangela and their many faults, sins and deficiencies"

Should anyone persist in personalizing the debate, moderation will occur.

No hitting below the belt and protect yourself at all times.

Debate!


Am I the one who personalised this debate because I used the word "idiotic" to describe ignoring scientific evidence in the favour of letting children die of easily preventable diseases? Because as far as I can tell that is the textbook definition of idiotic behaviour. Was it wrong to use this word? How could I have worded my argument differently to make the same point but without it being "personal"? I would appreciate feedback on this because I have gotten into trouble for using this word before and I didn't quite understand why my usage was problematic then, and obviously I still don't.


If a WP member advocates a certain position A and then another says "Those idiots who advocate A are going to lead us to rack and ruin!" The first member is likely to feel that they have been indirectly attacked as an idiot for advocating position A.

Calling people idiots is abusive name calling, not fair commentary even if you think their position is ill conceived or the result of poor thinking. Everyone says something idiotic from time to time, but that's a very different thing than "being" an idiot. That's an existential label that proclaims the person has a very low IQ. That's really not OK.

A way to avoid getting into trouble with this is to focus on the thing that was said rather than the intellectual capability of the person or people saying it. This is likely to be a more persuasive argument because it sometimes happens that people with very little intellectual capacity present true arguments and people with enormous intellectual capacity argue totally false positions. Also, if you present the reasons for your position, some people might be swayed by them but if you call them idiots, they are likely to dismiss you and won't hear anything else you have to say.


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wilburforce
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11 Jan 2017, 9:27 pm

Adamantium wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Moderating

Break!

Please return to your corners, ladies.

Reminder: The topic is "Robert Kennedy Jr. and Vaccine Safety Review" not "willburforce and nurseangela and their many faults, sins and deficiencies"

Should anyone persist in personalizing the debate, moderation will occur.

No hitting below the belt and protect yourself at all times.

Debate!


Am I the one who personalised this debate because I used the word "idiotic" to describe ignoring scientific evidence in the favour of letting children die of easily preventable diseases? Because as far as I can tell that is the textbook definition of idiotic behaviour. Was it wrong to use this word? How could I have worded my argument differently to make the same point but without it being "personal"? I would appreciate feedback on this because I have gotten into trouble for using this word before and I didn't quite understand why my usage was problematic then, and obviously I still don't.


If a WP member advocates a certain position A and then another says "Those idiots who advocate A are going to lead us to rack and ruin!" The first member is likely to feel that they have been indirectly attacked as an idiot for advocating position A.

Calling people idiots is abusive name calling, not fair commentary even if you think their position is ill conceived or the result of poor thinking. Everyone says something idiotic from time to time, but that's a very different thing than "being" an idiot. That's an existential label that proclaims the person has a very low IQ. That's really not OK.

A way to avoid getting into trouble with this is to focus on the thing that was said rather than the intellectual capability of the person or people saying it. This is likely to be a more persuasive argument because it sometimes happens that people with very little intellectual capacity present true arguments and people with enormous intellectual capacity argue totally false positions. Also, if you present the reasons for your position, some people might be swayed by them but if you call them idiots, they are likely to dismiss you and won't hear anything else you have to say.


But I said it was the behaviour that was idiotic, not the people doing it. I specified it was an idiotic thing to do, not that the people doing it were idiots. Letting children needlessly die is an idiotic behaviour that a lot of not-otherwise-idiotic people participate in because of misinformation and propaganda about the "horrible danger" of vaccines. This is why I don't understand the reasoning behind the trouble with this word. What is a better, less "personal" word for completely ignoring the obvious truth of something? Is there a word for that that's not "personally insulting"?

I'm really having a hard time understanding this.


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Adamantium
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11 Jan 2017, 9:42 pm

wilburforce wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Moderating

Break!

Please return to your corners, ladies.

Reminder: The topic is "Robert Kennedy Jr. and Vaccine Safety Review" not "willburforce and nurseangela and their many faults, sins and deficiencies"

Should anyone persist in personalizing the debate, moderation will occur.

No hitting below the belt and protect yourself at all times.

Debate!


Am I the one who personalised this debate because I used the word "idiotic" to describe ignoring scientific evidence in the favour of letting children die of easily preventable diseases? Because as far as I can tell that is the textbook definition of idiotic behaviour. Was it wrong to use this word? How could I have worded my argument differently to make the same point but without it being "personal"? I would appreciate feedback on this because I have gotten into trouble for using this word before and I didn't quite understand why my usage was problematic then, and obviously I still don't.


If a WP member advocates a certain position A and then another says "Those idiots who advocate A are going to lead us to rack and ruin!" The first member is likely to feel that they have been indirectly attacked as an idiot for advocating position A.

Calling people idiots is abusive name calling, not fair commentary even if you think their position is ill conceived or the result of poor thinking. Everyone says something idiotic from time to time, but that's a very different thing than "being" an idiot. That's an existential label that proclaims the person has a very low IQ. That's really not OK.

A way to avoid getting into trouble with this is to focus on the thing that was said rather than the intellectual capability of the person or people saying it. This is likely to be a more persuasive argument because it sometimes happens that people with very little intellectual capacity present true arguments and people with enormous intellectual capacity argue totally false positions. Also, if you present the reasons for your position, some people might be swayed by them but if you call them idiots, they are likely to dismiss you and won't hear anything else you have to say.


But I said it was the behaviour that was idiotic, not the people doing it. I specified it was an idiotic thing to do, not that the people doing it were idiots. Letting children needlessly die is an idiotic behaviour that a lot of not-otherwise-idiotic people participate in because of misinformation and propaganda about the "horrible danger" of vaccines. This is why I don't understand the reasoning behind the trouble with this word. What is a better, less "personal" word for completely ignoring the obvious truth of something? Is there a word for that that's not "personally insulting"?

I'm really having a hard time understanding this.


But before you called their behavior idiotic, which would have been fine, you called them idiots, which is not so fine:
wilburforce wrote:
Children are dying of preventable diseases because of these idiots.


And that was the language to which nurseangela objected, an objection she voiced with a personal jab at you.


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