Page 1 of 2 [ 17 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

11 Feb 2017, 10:44 am

I'd read an article or two already denoting Bannon's reverence for the Bhagavad Gita. Seeing Evola in the mix now is even more interesting. Traditionalism has been a big thing in Russia, particularly with Putin and Aleksandr Dugin. I'm starting to wonder if it'll be a household term in the next five or ten years:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/10/worl ... .html?_r=0

The clear problem in my mind - if this does uptick in the US we're in some seriously deep isht. So far the only idiots who've been up for violence for disagreement are Antifa and BAMN. We're in danger of getting that on the far right now as well and I could easily see Traditionalism playing a significant role in the shape of what that far-right philosophy looks like.


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.


Adamantium
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2013
Age: 1017
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,998
Location: Erehwon

11 Feb 2017, 12:20 pm

Quote:
Under the influence of René Guénon, a French metaphysicist and convert to Islam, Evola in 1934 published his most influential work, “The Revolt Against the Modern World,” which cast materialism as an eroding influence on ancient values.

It viewed humanism, the Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation and the French Revolution all as historical disasters that took man further away from a transcendental perennial truth.

Changing the system, Evola argued, was “not a question of contesting and polemicizing, but of blowing everything up.”

Evola’s ideal order, Professor Drake wrote, was based on “hierarchy, caste, monarchy, race, myth, religion and ritual.”


These values are identical to the values of Wahabism. And Bannon is influenced by a crytpo fascist who was influenced by a convert to Islam who hated humanism and the enlightenment.

Truly, this is like a Punch and Judy show, with the same puppeteer controlling both sides.

I am immediately reminded of Jung's writing on the Wotan archetype and Reich's "Mass Psychology of Fascism" - these are powerful forces that have a history of using and consuming those who are foolish enough to try to use them to gain personal power.

It may seem like a peculiar connection, but this also makes me think about Yukio Mishima and the way the mythology he immersed himself in took over and consumed his life and the way this is treated in Fumiko Enchi's "Masks" with discussions of possession and psychic assault like (if I recall correctly) the Lady Kaede's in the Tale of Genji leading to an exploration of how those potent forces can be unleashed in the minds of unsuspecting modern people.

All a bit esoteric, I suppose.

The danger these passions pose if they become widely inflamed is extreme.


_________________
Don't believe the gender note under my avatar. A WP bug means I can't fix it.


Adamantium
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2013
Age: 1017
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,998
Location: Erehwon

11 Feb 2017, 12:52 pm

Also: this link from within that article is interesting and has some topics I thought you would find particularly interesting:
http://traditionalistblog.blogspot.com/ ... /Evola?m=0

Quote:
Liviu Bordaş. "The difficult encounter in Rome. Mircea Eliade’s post-war relation with Julius Evola – new letters and data," International Journal on Humanistic Ideology 2 (2011), pp. 125-158.
Our knowledge of the post-war relationship between Eliade (1907-1986) and Evola (1898-1974) was based mainly on fifteen letters of Evola, and on two recollections from Eliade’s journal and memoirs. The article presents and discusses new data supplied by eight inedited letters of Evola and four entries from Eliade’s unpublished journal. This data is corroborated with Evola’s reviews of Eliade’s books, with the reciprocal quotations in their works, as well as with various mentions from their correspondence with other persons. The new information helps to draw a clearer picture of their epistolary relation, re-established in September 1949, of their two encounters in Rome (May 1952 and April 1955), as well as of the successive moments of fracture between them (1955 and 1964). It also brings into discussion topics such as yoga, esotericism, racism or fascism, which provide seed for further inquiry.


Also probably of interest to you:
Quote:
A new article by Hans Thomas Hakl, “The Symbology of Hermeticism in the Work of Julius Evola” (in Lux in Tenebris: The Visual and the Symbolic in Western Esotericism, ed. Peter J. Forshaw, Leiden: Brill 2016), discusses Evola’s understanding of symbols, notably in the context of alchemy, and Evola’s La Tradizione Ermetica (The Hermetic Tradition, 1931).

Hakl looks in detail at the meaning of particular symbols, especially the Monas Hieroglyphica, showing in this instance how Evola drew on Cesare della Riviera (d. 1625) and thus, indirectly, on John Dee (1527-1608). He argues that it is important to remember that Evola’s work on the symbology of hermeticism “was written neither as a scholar nor as a practical alchemist… but purely and simply to demonstrate the ‘truth’ of his Traditional worldview.” For Evola, alchemy was a universal system, a point on which René Guénon disagreed.

Lux in Tenebris is published by Brill, and so sells for $202 (or €168). This may seem expensive, but there are also some other chapters that mention Traditionalism in passing: György E. Szönyi on “Myth and Magic: Victorian Enoch and Historical Contexts,” Aaron Cheak on “The Juncture of Transcendence and Concretion: Symbolique in René Schwaller de Lubicz,” and Joscelyn Godwin on “Esoteric Theories of Color.”


_________________
Don't believe the gender note under my avatar. A WP bug means I can't fix it.


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,367
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

11 Feb 2017, 12:54 pm

Is Traditionalism the new -ism they're going to run with now? I've never read or even heard of this Evola but I do not think being a traditionalist as I define it to be such a bad thing as the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, we have a sick disintegrating society and our people would be best served by embracing these traditional values over that of hedonism or Marxist ideas. America was founded on Enlightenment principles and so maybe traditionalism brings up different thoughts in your head, I think about the America that has been lost in the last 50 or so years and how much left of it will even be there after the next 50. Things aren't static and active measures can be taken to change the future as all change starts out that way.

Basically the hard left extremists in this country who wish to destroy it need to be squeezed out of existence, their power and influence needs to be expunged as much as possible. Defund, defund, defund, make these losers get real jobs!



Adamantium
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2013
Age: 1017
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,998
Location: Erehwon

11 Feb 2017, 1:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Is Traditionalism the new -ism they're going to run with now? I've never read or even heard of this Evola but I do not think being a traditionalist as I define it to be such a bad thing as the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, we have a sick disintegrating society and our people would be best served by embracing these traditional values over that of hedonism or Marxist ideas. America was founded on Enlightenment principles and so maybe traditionalism brings up different thoughts in your head, I think about the America that has been lost in the last 50 or so years and how much left of it will even be there after the next 50. Things aren't static and active measures can be taken to change the future as all change starts out that way.

Basically the hard left extremists in this country who wish to destroy it need to be squeezed out of existence, their power and influence needs to be expunged as much as possible. Defund, defund, defund, make these losers get real jobs!


It might be worth putting a tiny bit of effort into reading about these people and what they believe before trying to make them fit your own narrative. They do not support Enlightenment principles. Not at all.


_________________
Don't believe the gender note under my avatar. A WP bug means I can't fix it.


Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,367
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

11 Feb 2017, 2:31 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Is Traditionalism the new -ism they're going to run with now? I've never read or even heard of this Evola but I do not think being a traditionalist as I define it to be such a bad thing as the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, we have a sick disintegrating society and our people would be best served by embracing these traditional values over that of hedonism or Marxist ideas. America was founded on Enlightenment principles and so maybe traditionalism brings up different thoughts in your head, I think about the America that has been lost in the last 50 or so years and how much left of it will even be there after the next 50. Things aren't static and active measures can be taken to change the future as all change starts out that way.

Basically the hard left extremists in this country who wish to destroy it need to be squeezed out of existence, their power and influence needs to be expunged as much as possible. Defund, defund, defund, make these losers get real jobs!


It might be worth putting a tiny bit of effort into reading about these people and what they believe before trying to make them fit your own narrative. They do not support Enlightenment principles. Not at all.


I lightly skimmed the Evola stuff long enough(more weird **** than I want to decipher thru) to determine it doesn't apply to me and I see it as just another way to paint Trump supporters as fascists which is the clear implication you are making. Traditionalism can mean a lot of different things and some obscure Italian weirdo probably isn't what comes to mind for more people, I would think it is usually relative to that person.

FWIW the church my family came from teaches that the Papacy is the anti-Christ and that they are guilty of of non-Christian idol worship so I am definitely not a Traditionalist Catholic which is some other thing entirely. Traditional values seem like a good thing considering how piss poor the current ones are. The hard left have indoctrinated people into thinking the US was akin to living in Nazi Germany 50-60+ years ago and that only they are the ones protecting you from going back to it, it's ridiculous.



techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

11 Feb 2017, 2:44 pm

Yeah, Jacoby - to clarify this is a very specific use of the word 'Traditionalism', ie. it's not a Merriam Webster descriptor. Rather it's the Rene Guenon, Frithjof Schuon, Julius Evola, etc. school of conception for the current age.

Understanding the esotericism of it matters a lot to get where it's going. I had the chance to read Guenon. Traditionalism, despite Guenon's conversion to Sufi Islam, is ultimately Hindu in its conception - very oldschool, unrformed, and coarse Hinduism, that's anti-technology, pro-authoritarian, and additionally pro-caste system. It's the exact opposite to what I've heard John Michael Greer refer to as the 'Church of Progress'.

In that way Traditionalists and Transhumanists are at the opposite ends of a spectrum where, like many spectrums, sanity is in the middle and insanity is at the ends.


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.


Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 11 Feb 2017, 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

11 Feb 2017, 2:45 pm

Something I'd like to add:

Traditionalism looks very anti-western. I don't just mean that in the modern way, I mean on its face it goes directly against Hermeticism and Neoplatonism which are both highly liberal and humanistic. The Hinduism at its core explains a lot.


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.


techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

11 Feb 2017, 2:52 pm

I'd also say - I really don't at all think that this should just be something to tar anyone right of center with.

There are many reasons to be right of center - libertarians generally fall there, people who prefer change at slow and digestible pace (for societal cohesion) tend to fit into the slightly right-of-center by today's measurements.

My concern goes with a lot of what I think Jordan Peterson has been absolutely dead-aim about. We're utterly blind to archetypal forces, our neural wiring, and when you see cultural psychosis in lockstep conformity you know that someone did something that tapped into atavistic evolutionary forces that have been let out of the bottle. I also agree with him, just on the visible evidence, that in a contest between modern post-enlightenment rationalism vs. evolutionary atavism - atavism will overpower reason in almost every case of a person who doesn't know such things exist and even in plenty who do. This is part of why I'm also very big on Gad Saad's research into evolutionary consumption - ie. to the extent that the social sciences say that evolution stopped with us and has absolutely nothing to do with our choices as adult humans in a modern society - it's not only horse-crap, it's part of how most people are left scratching their heads utterly dumbstruck while some invisible network of solipsism around them creates such a powerful anti-logical agreement that it starts ripping their society down brick by brick. We have to understand the specific kinds of craziness that are in humans to be able to see the warning signs and head this stuff off at the pass.


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 15,655
Location: temperate zone

11 Feb 2017, 3:25 pm

Someone associated with Trump actually reads books?

That part's astounding!

But that his choice of reading matter is an obscure Italian philosophical prophet of 20th Century Fascism is not totally astounding.

Bannon has probably read Mein Kampf as well.



techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

11 Feb 2017, 3:32 pm

A different article on Bannon, the Gita, and Dharma:
http://thediplomat.com/2017/02/steve-ba ... ideologue/


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.


techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

11 Feb 2017, 3:38 pm

My concern is really more about whether a relatively new public stage -ism is going to blindside the populace and have people drinking some very sharp koolaid, mostly on account that critical thinkers are few and far between and that Traditionalism throws a lot of seemingly new ideas at people that they'd never considered before. It also strikes a major chord for anyone who sits there dreaming about the good old days, which seems to be a lot of people. If enough people are associating 'progress' under neoliberalism with poverty, an anti-progress movement would be in a position to cause a lot of chaos.

Regarding Bannon himself - aside from a few people 'close to him' its ambigious and I'd agree that just him reading something makes him no more a proponent than it does anyone else. At the same time though I don't think his views are necessarily under a Noam Chomsky-like cloud of ineffability and we'll know pretty clearly relatively soon whether or not he embraces Traditionalism at or near the core of his philosophy.


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.


Adamantium
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2013
Age: 1017
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,998
Location: Erehwon

11 Feb 2017, 10:47 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
My concern is really more about whether a relatively new public stage -ism is going to blindside the populace and have people drinking some very sharp koolaid, mostly on account that critical thinkers are few and far between and that Traditionalism throws a lot of seemingly new ideas at people that they'd never considered before. It also strikes a major chord for anyone who sits there dreaming about the good old days, which seems to be a lot of people. If enough people are associating 'progress' under neoliberalism with poverty, an anti-progress movement would be in a position to cause a lot of chaos.


I think I understand this line of thinking completely and agree.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Regarding Bannon himself - aside from a few people 'close to him' its ambigious and I'd agree that just him reading something makes him no more a proponent than it does anyone else. At the same time though I don't think his views are necessarily under a Noam Chomsky-like cloud of ineffability and we'll know pretty clearly relatively soon whether or not he embraces Traditionalism at or near the core of his philosophy.

Your post is my favorite of the week just for the phrase "Noam Chomsky-like cloud of ineffability."

That Traditionalist Blog linked to in the Times story had this note on Bannon:

Quote:
Bannon argued that many of Vladimir Putin's views were underpinned by Eurasianism, and noted "he’s got an adviser who harkens back to Julius Evola and different writers of the early 20th century who are really the supporters of what’s called the traditionalist movement." This adviser could hardly be anyone but Dugin. "We the Judeo-Christian West," continued Bannon, "really have to look at what he [Putin]’s talking about as far as traditionalism goes — particularly the sense of where it supports the underpinnings of nationalism."

At first sight, this looks like an endorsement of Traditionalism, Evola, and Dugin. But it is not clear that Bannon really knows that much about Traditionalism, which he glosses as "standing up for traditional institutions," which is not quite the point. His source for Dugin may be an article published in Breitbart in 2014, "Putin's Rasputin: The Mad Mystic Who Inspired Russia's Leader," which mentions Evola but says almost nothng about his thought. Otherwise, Evola has only been mentioned occasionally on Breitbart, as in 2016 in "An Establishment Conservative’s Guide to The Alt-Right," where he was named in passing as one of the intellectual origins of the alternative right.


This seems right in line with your thinking.

The Dharma piece is very interesting. What did you think of the Lux in Tenebris notes on the Monas Hieroglyphica and Evola's understanding (at odds with Guénon) that alchemy is a universal system?


_________________
Don't believe the gender note under my avatar. A WP bug means I can't fix it.


Adamantium
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2013
Age: 1017
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,998
Location: Erehwon

11 Feb 2017, 11:18 pm

I wanted to add that I find it remarkable that conversations we had about esoteric subjects like the work of the great Dr. Dee, the Tree of Life and the Hermetic tradition transmitted through the vehicle of Tarot should be connected with key figures at the center of Russian and American power.

Absolutely fascinating.


_________________
Don't believe the gender note under my avatar. A WP bug means I can't fix it.


techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 18,087
Location: In my workshop drafting non-shiny things.

12 Feb 2017, 2:00 am

Adamantium wrote:
The Dharma piece is very interesting. What did you think of the Lux in Tenebris notes on the Monas Hieroglyphica and Evola's understanding (at odds with Guénon) that alchemy is a universal system?

If they meant universal system in terms of perennial knowledge - I don't know how much evidence there is for that. Outside of puffing, which really was just people fumbling around without periodic tables, it seems like the most important part of what got classed as alchemy was us trying to find our identity in the flow of natural processes and to that end we had a very spiritual and exalted take on things like the cycles of evaporation and rainfall or the different ways that matter broke apart, recombined, etc. for the way that everything we depended upon both rose and fell by these processes. I can see where early philosophic approaches to natural science would look similar and share similar observations, just that I'm not quite sold yet on Graham Hancock's notion that there was a global culture during the younger dryas to be lost to the oceans and to have had some sort of ancient foothold on these ideas that got scattered around. It's not impossible, it's just too few dots at this point IMHO to connect.

Adamantium wrote:
I wanted to add that I find it remarkable that conversations we had about esoteric subjects like the work of the great Dr. Dee, the Tree of Life and the Hermetic tradition transmitted through the vehicle of Tarot should be connected with key figures at the center of Russian and American power.

Absolutely fascinating.

I think it's always been there in the background with various ruling elites, it's just more surprising to see perhaps out in the open in our present time when we'd really think all of that's behind us. As far as I can tell, for as long as we're dealing with transpersonal subjective interactions, different ideas for managing that side of life will come to favor and it seems like there's no more applicable place for theories of crowd control and mass psychology than in politics and marketing.


_________________
Amphibologies are. The cat's pajamas.