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JohnPowell
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19 Feb 2017, 12:37 pm

During the propaganda campaign to get us to take down Gaddafi, the BBC airs footage of an alleged demonstration in Libya, the only problem being that the demonstrators are waving Indian flags. They hoped no one would notice-



During the propaganda campaign to get us to take down Assad, the BBC doctors footage from a doctor, changing her words from "napalm" to "chemical weapons", hoping no one would notice-



During the massacre on Gaza in 2008/9, the BBC refuse to broadcast an appeal for humanitarian aid in Gaza, because of being instructed by Israel not to do so. Tony Benn does it for them-



The BBC like pretty much every news station, repeated the lies during the second Iraq war. They have refused to mention the US and UK support and weapon sales to the Saudis, with those weapons going to blow up schools and hospitals in Yemen. They called the organ eating Jihadis in Syria 'moderate rebels' and refused to show the videos of our 'moderate rebels' carrying out the brutal murders and cannibalism, rather saying that it "allegedly" happened.

I've seen a lot of people here say they believe BBC news is credible. Hopefully this might help them question that.


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19 Feb 2017, 12:53 pm

I remember pretty distinctly some high profile news organizations(maybe the BBC) circulating pictures of the victims of our war in Iraq as victims of Bashar al-Assad



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19 Feb 2017, 12:59 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I remember pretty distinctly some high profile news organizations(maybe the BBC) circulating pictures of the victims of our war in Iraq as victims of Bashar al-Assad


All the mass media are basically identical. They all parrot each others lies.


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The_Walrus
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19 Feb 2017, 4:54 pm

I think the thing that shows that the BBC is fair and balanced more than anything else is how almost everyone with a strong opinion hates it. People on the right claim it has a left-wing bias, people on the left accuse it of being a Conservative mouthpiece, anti-Semites accuse it of being too strongly pro-Israel, Zionists accuse it of being too strongly pro-Palestine...

The napalm thing was not doctored to add in a fake reference to chemical weapons. There's a full and detailed explanation available here. tl;dr: original broadcast contained both "chemical weapon" and "napalm", it became clear it wasn't a chemical weapon so "chemical weapon" was taken out, then the full clip was used again in Panorama at the end of September but cut short. In all cases, the surrounding footage made it clear that there was initial uncertainty and that it was eventually confirmed to be napalm or similar. I'm not really sure why someone would doctor a video to mislead people into thinking that a different weapon of mass destruction was used...

The Indian flag thing is probably just a mistake. In big organisations, occasionally someone plays the wrong footage. Actually this happens quite regularly in totally innocuous situations. Agree that this one is particularly unfortunate. Doesn't look like anyone thought it was worth officially complaining about though.

The BBC don't ignore arms sales to the Saudis and Yemen, that's a complete fabrication on your part that was easy to fact check.

The Syrian rebel who ate an opponent's heart was an al-Nusra commander, not a "moderate" in the FSA or a similar group. It was also reported on by the BBC. Again, this was quite easy to fact check.

Reporting what politicians say about classified intelligence is a no-win situation. Of course everyone reported it, and nobody was in a position to challenge it. You can't really hold that against anyone. In the same way, you couldn't hold it against the news if tomorrow Trump said the CIA had just foiled a terrorist attack by a Yemeni. Nobody would be able to challenge him from a position of strength unless they had access to classified information.

So, of the five claims made by the original poster, three were inaccurate, one is a fact of life, and one is probably a valid complaint but also probably just a mistake.

If the BBC was wrong three times out of four then I'd stop paying attention...



JohnPowell
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19 Feb 2017, 5:33 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I think the thing that shows that the BBC is fair and balanced more than anything else is how almost everyone with a strong opinion hates it. People on the right claim it has a left-wing bias, people on the left accuse it of being a Conservative mouthpiece, anti-Semites accuse it of being too strongly pro-Israel, Zionists accuse it of being too strongly pro-Palestine...

The napalm thing was not doctored to add in a fake reference to chemical weapons. There's a full and detailed explanation available here. tl;dr: original broadcast contained both "chemical weapon" and "napalm", it became clear it wasn't a chemical weapon so "chemical weapon" was taken out, then the full clip was used again in Panorama at the end of September but cut short. In all cases, the surrounding footage made it clear that there was initial uncertainty and that it was eventually confirmed to be napalm or similar. I'm not really sure why someone would doctor a video to mislead people into thinking that a different weapon of mass destruction was used...

The Indian flag thing is probably just a mistake. In big organisations, occasionally someone plays the wrong footage. Actually this happens quite regularly in totally innocuous situations. Agree that this one is particularly unfortunate. Doesn't look like anyone thought it was worth officially complaining about though.

The BBC don't ignore arms sales to the Saudis and Yemen, that's a complete fabrication on your part that was easy to fact check.

The Syrian rebel who ate an opponent's heart was an al-Nusra commander, not a "moderate" in the FSA or a similar group. It was also reported on by the BBC. Again, this was quite easy to fact check.

Reporting what politicians say about classified intelligence is a no-win situation. Of course everyone reported it, and nobody was in a position to challenge it. You can't really hold that against anyone. In the same way, you couldn't hold it against the news if tomorrow Trump said the CIA had just foiled a terrorist attack by a Yemeni. Nobody would be able to challenge him from a position of strength unless they had access to classified information.

So, of the five claims made by the original poster, three were inaccurate, one is a fact of life, and one is probably a valid complaint but also probably just a mistake.

If the BBC was wrong three times out of four then I'd stop paying attention...


Anyone who doesn't rely on the BBC to deal with claims against the BBC, hates it. Your argument is so illogical it is unreal. It's like saying Infowars is fair and balanced because different people attack it. Ignorant people who rely on the BBC for their news regarding Israel/Palestine would accuse the BBC of being pro-Palestine. The BBC edited "Palestine" out of some rapper's song and ex BBC workers have said they are just waiting for a call from the Israelis when they report anything showing Israel in bad light. As I know a lot about the conflict, I can see the BBC's game. When they talk about Hamas, they will say something along the lines of "Hamas would claim..." when it is a basic fact, and they will spew out Israeli propaganda like it is factual. Probably goes over your head.

Haha. You give a reply from the BBC to try and debunk the story? :lol: There's no evidence at all that she originally said "chemical weapons", hence why they've had to say that it was in the original footage along with "napalm". It's easy, just find me the original footage with both words in.

Just a mistake? Yeah, weird how these "mistakes" keep happening when the BBC is beating the war drums. Bit like the mistake of them reporting that Building 7 had collapsed 25 minutes before it did.

You completely took what I said and ignored the bits you didn't like. I never said they just ignored our arm sales. I said they ignored that our weapons were being used to bomb schools and hospitals in Yemen. So it is you guilty of fabrication.

The BBC weren't talking about Al-Nusra and other groups in 2013 on the main news channel. They were just talking about 'moderate rebels' and the "regime". They know that the majority of people will just rely on the BBC news on TV. Also the heart eating was just one example. I'll find some more. There never has been any 'moderate rebels'. That includes the FSA.


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The_Walrus
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19 Feb 2017, 6:02 pm

JohnPowell wrote:

You completely took what I said and ignored the bits you didn't like. I never said they just ignored our arm sales. I said they ignored that our weapons were being used to bomb schools and hospitals in Yemen. So it is you guilty of fabrication.

You didn't click the link I provided, did you?

Top result:

Quote:
The US has said it will limit arms sales to Saudi Arabia amid concerns over civilian casualties linked to air strikes in Yemen.

It goes on to mention 140 people being killed at a funeral

Second result:[/quote]
Quote:
The UK should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia while Saudi actions in neighbouring Yemen are investigated, a draft report by MPs has said.
The Committees on Arms Export Controls said it was highly likely that weapons had been used to violate international humanitarian and human rights laws.


Another article:

Quote:
The UK must stop sales of weapons which could be used by Saudi Arabia in Yemen until an inquiry into human rights breaches is complete, MPs have said... One of the attacks resulted in the deaths of 47 civilians, including 21 women and 15 children, and injuries to 58 who were killed when a wedding party at a house was struck by missiles from military aircraft.


And this is from an article in early 2015:

Quote:
US Special Forces have been discreetly training the Yemenis at a base outside the capital, while the US, Saudi Arabia and Yemen all co-operate on conducting airstrikes by unmanned Reaper drones on suspected militants in remote areas.
The drone strikes are highly controversial and have killed dozens of civilians over the years, according to local tribes. In 2011, one killed a US citizen - AQAP's Anwar Al-Awlaki.

It's about drone strikes rather than weapon sales, but it amounts to the same thing - the US and the Saudis killing civilians.

1/3.
Quote:
The BBC weren't talking about Al-Nusra and other groups in 2013 on the main news channel. They were just talking about 'moderate rebels' and the "regime". They know that the majority of people will just rely on the BBC news on TV.

Then why were they [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21061018]interviewing al-Nusra leaders
and explicitly contrasting them with the FSA and describing their connections to Al-Qaeda and even the Taliban?

With a little examination, it was easy to find several more news stories from that year in which the BBC described Al-Nusra negatively. There's also this bad boy.

2/3.
Quote:
There never has been any 'moderate rebels'. That includes the FSA.

While I guess that depends on your definition of "moderate", it seems extraordinarily unlikely.

Based on what little I know of him, I think "moderate" seems a fair description of General Salim Idris, for example.



JohnPowell
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19 Feb 2017, 7:32 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:

You completely took what I said and ignored the bits you didn't like. I never said they just ignored our arm sales. I said they ignored that our weapons were being used to bomb schools and hospitals in Yemen. So it is you guilty of fabrication.

You didn't click the link I provided, did you?

Top result:

Quote:
The US has said it will limit arms sales to Saudi Arabia amid concerns over civilian casualties linked to air strikes in Yemen.

It goes on to mention 140 people being killed at a funeral

Second result:

Quote:
The UK should stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia while Saudi actions in neighbouring Yemen are investigated, a draft report by MPs has said.
The Committees on Arms Export Controls said it was highly likely that weapons had been used to violate international humanitarian and human rights laws.


Another article:

Quote:
The UK must stop sales of weapons which could be used by Saudi Arabia in Yemen until an inquiry into human rights breaches is complete, MPs have said... One of the attacks resulted in the deaths of 47 civilians, including 21 women and 15 children, and injuries to 58 who were killed when a wedding party at a house was struck by missiles from military aircraft.


And this is from an article in early 2015:

Quote:
US Special Forces have been discreetly training the Yemenis at a base outside the capital, while the US, Saudi Arabia and Yemen all co-operate on conducting airstrikes by unmanned Reaper drones on suspected militants in remote areas.
The drone strikes are highly controversial and have killed dozens of civilians over the years, according to local tribes. In 2011, one killed a US citizen - AQAP's Anwar Al-Awlaki.

It's about drone strikes rather than weapon sales, but it amounts to the same thing - the US and the Saudis killing civilians.

1/3.
Quote:
The BBC weren't talking about Al-Nusra and other groups in 2013 on the main news channel. They were just talking about 'moderate rebels' and the "regime". They know that the majority of people will just rely on the BBC news on TV.

Then why were they [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21061018]interviewing al-Nusra leaders
and explicitly contrasting them with the FSA and describing their connections to Al-Qaeda and even the Taliban?

With a little examination, it was easy to find several more news stories from that year in which the BBC described Al-Nusra negatively. There's also this bad boy.

2/3.
Quote:
There never has been any 'moderate rebels'. That includes the FSA.

While I guess that depends on your definition of "moderate", it seems extraordinarily unlikely.

Based on what little I know of him, I think "moderate" seems a fair description of General Salim Idris, for example.[/quote]

The timing of the US suddenly being worried about their weapons going to the Saudis has everything to do with Obama leaving office. That aside, I was wrong about the BBC not reporting our weapons killing civilians in Yemen. It is weird though, considering I asked for a report by them last year and they gave me one that didn't mention the link. So thanks for the links. It's important that we distinguish between BBC news on the TV and online. And you completely ignored my point about that regarding the rebels.

'Moderate' would mean people the West support, the US particularly.


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The_Walrus
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21 Feb 2017, 3:06 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
It's important that we distinguish between BBC news on the TV and online. And you completely ignored my point about that regarding the rebels.

'Moderate' would mean people the West support, the US particularly.

One of the stories I linked to (the interview with the al-Nusra leader) was almost certainly the top story on the News at Ten that night, that's the only reason they'd produce such a long video. I would be surprised if the rest were not also displayed on the TV.

I'm a bit unclear on your definition of moderate. You said there were no "moderate" rebels, and then criticise the West (and particularly the US) for supporting them, but say that anyone the West/US supports is "moderate". I think what you're getting at is that anyone we support gets described as "moderate", but some of them are terrible people. That's true, but it seems to me that some of them are really moderate.

Suggested definition of "moderate": the current range of opinions represented in the House of Commons. Does that seem fair?



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21 Feb 2017, 10:55 pm

There is no effective moderate fighting force on the ground in Syria besides the Kurds, all other opposition are Islamists of varying levels. "Moderates" Sunni Arab fighters straight up don't have the courage or fortitude to wage this fight, this is a sectarian conflict which lends itself to the extreme and pretty much all of civil society in Syria has either left and sided with Assad at this point whether they like him or not because they do not want to be ruled by Islamic State.



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22 Feb 2017, 1:00 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
It's important that we distinguish between BBC news on the TV and online. And you completely ignored my point about that regarding the rebels.

'Moderate' would mean people the West support, the US particularly.

One of the stories I linked to (the interview with the al-Nusra leader) was almost certainly the top story on the News at Ten that night, that's the only reason they'd produce such a long video. I would be surprised if the rest were not also displayed on the TV.

I'm a bit unclear on your definition of moderate. You said there were no "moderate" rebels, and then criticise the West (and particularly the US) for supporting them, but say that anyone the West/US supports is "moderate". I think what you're getting at is that anyone we support gets described as "moderate", but some of them are terrible people. That's true, but it seems to me that some of them are really moderate.

Suggested definition of "moderate": the current range of opinions represented in the House of Commons. Does that seem fair?


"Almost certainly" is just a guess. If it was, then the BBC staff in the newsroom completely ignored the video, as their story was that it was moderate rebels vs evil Assad.

Yes. But there were never any 'moderates' in reality, whatever that means. If you want to hear how the conflict started, it is explained here by Eva Bartlett

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKcvtOya2-Q

Yes, well the most of them. Someone like Dennis Skinner or Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't be described as "moderate" though, because they are against the war machine.


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22 Feb 2017, 1:03 pm


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22 Feb 2017, 1:18 pm

I thought it was common knowledge that people didn't trust the BBC. You shouldn't really trust most media anyway, everyone over exaggerates everything. I normally go with The Independent before anything or the Metro for fun browsing although the Metro has become rather clickbaity and annoying but no news source is perfect.

The daily fail/The daily racist is probably the worst newspaper in the entire country but it's fun to troll the pondlife on their facebook comments.


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24 Feb 2017, 5:38 pm

Lunella wrote:
I thought it was common knowledge that people didn't trust the BBC. You shouldn't really trust most media anyway, everyone over exaggerates everything. I normally go with The Independent before anything or the Metro for fun browsing although the Metro has become rather clickbaity and annoying but no news source is perfect.

The daily fail/The daily racist is probably the worst newspaper in the entire country but it's fun to troll the pondlife on their facebook comments.


No, a lot of people take the BBC seriously.

Yeah, I do that with The Mirror.


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The_Walrus
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24 Feb 2017, 7:16 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Someone like Dennis Skinner or Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't be described as "moderate" though, because they are against the war machine.

Well no, they wouldn't be described as "moderate" because they hold pretty extreme positions on all sorts of issues. Corbyn, for his part, is a pretty big war monger, he just supports completely different wars to most politicians. He's all about buddying up to Russia and Iran and calling for the total destruction of humanity.
Lunella wrote:
I thought it was common knowledge that people didn't trust the BBC. You shouldn't really trust most media anyway, everyone over exaggerates everything. I normally go with The Independent before anything or the Metro for fun browsing although the Metro has become rather clickbaity and annoying but no news source is perfect.

The Indy was a very good paper but since it has stopped the print run it's become a clickbait rag. i is still worthwhile but not as good as it used to be. Think the best strategy is alternating between the Guardian, the Telegraph and the BBC, which like it or not is probably the best news source in the world that isn't just Reuters.



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24 Feb 2017, 7:38 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Someone like Dennis Skinner or Jeremy Corbyn wouldn't be described as "moderate" though, because they are against the war machine.

Well no, they wouldn't be described as "moderate" because they hold pretty extreme positions on all sorts of issues. Corbyn, for his part, is a pretty big war monger, he just supports completely different wars to most politicians. He's all about buddying up to Russia and Iran and calling for the total destruction of humanity.
Lunella wrote:
I thought it was common knowledge that people didn't trust the BBC. You shouldn't really trust most media anyway, everyone over exaggerates everything. I normally go with The Independent before anything or the Metro for fun browsing although the Metro has become rather clickbaity and annoying but no news source is perfect.

The Indy was a very good paper but since it has stopped the print run it's become a clickbait rag. i is still worthwhile but not as good as it used to be. Think the best strategy is alternating between the Guardian, the Telegraph and the BBC, which like it or not is probably the best news source in the world that isn't just Reuters.


First part is absolute garbage.

BBC news is a joke. It just spouts war propaganda when the majority of people in the UK don't want war. The BBC is the government's b***h.


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25 Feb 2017, 4:35 pm

As an aspiring journalist I've always taken the view that if you're being accused of bias by all sides of politics then you're doing a good thing. It's because people in their own political camps always want their side of the story to be told; when this doesn't happen they cry "Bias" despite the fact that their opponents have also claimed the same thing. I remember a radio broadcaster saying that whenever he'd chair a debate on the Israel-Palestine issue he'd always receive accusations that he's both a pro-Palestine anti-Semite and an anti-Palestine Zionist at the same time.

JohnPowell wrote:
During the propaganda campaign

During the propaganda campaign

During the massacre



And you talk about bias :roll: