Can one be both conservative *and* tolerant?

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adifferentname
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16 Mar 2017, 5:01 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I really tried avoid this thread and I'm posting this late.

No - the two are mutually exclusive. You're trying to meet a politically engineered/hacked/baked definition of 'tolerant' that's in direct violation of definition 1) in the Oxford dictionary. It's a word-war, you don't win by any other means than bringing a dictionary into battle and being willing to use it.


Alright, let's go with oxforddictionaries.com:

Showing willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behaviour that one does not necessarily agree with.

We'll use the same source for "conservative":

1 Averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.

2 (in a political context) favouring free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas.


Not seeing the logical exclusion here.


I think you missed what I meant by that. Tolerance, in the Oxford dictionary, is very different from 'tolerance' as it's taught on the left.

Does that help at all?


Well if we're going with the definitions of the "left", by which I'm assuming you mean the language of Progressives, it's all Newspeak. I thereby revise my answer to:

Pancake.



kraftiekortie
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16 Mar 2017, 5:16 pm

I understand the "present-day" definition of "left wing" and "right wing." And I understand its usage here.

But I don't think "progressives" like Teddy Roosevelt would have been considered "left wing" in their day.

To me, "the left" means someone who blatantly espouses socialist/communistic ideas. "The right" means somebody who espouses reactionary ideologies like Nazism, Fascism, ultra-nationalism. In most cases, both "the left" and "the right" by the "old" definition don't believe in representative government at all (except for something like a "council" hand-picked by a dictator).

I believe it is a rare Democrat who is a "leftist," and a rare Republican who is a "rightist."



jrjones9933
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16 Mar 2017, 5:18 pm

Oxford makes a distinction between socially and fiscally conservative, which are the labels used in the US. The location also makes a difference. A social conservative from the Netherlands would likely be tolerant, since they have a tradition of tolerance. The US has a tradition of violent suppression of differences, so a social conservative in the US could not be tolerant.

A fiscal conservative would neither be tolerant nor intolerant, except as it affected their bottom line. No such person exists, to my knowledge. People have preconceptions and use heuristics, for the most part.


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techstepgenr8tion
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16 Mar 2017, 5:42 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Well if we're going with the definitions of the "left", by which I'm assuming you mean the language of Progressives, it's all Newspeak. I thereby revise my answer to:

Pancake.

I figured that the context of the question was a cultural/political. If Tim meant this as a philosophic inquiry into the true nature of conservatism and tolerance I apologize for my hasty response.


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adifferentname
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16 Mar 2017, 7:19 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Well if we're going with the definitions of the "left", by which I'm assuming you mean the language of Progressives, it's all Newspeak. I thereby revise my answer to:

Pancake.

I figured that the context of the question was a cultural/political. If Tim meant this as a philosophic inquiry into the true nature of conservatism and tolerance I apologize for my hasty response.


The context of the question is certainly cultural/political, but establishes a false dichotomy between liberal and conservativism. Even were it "a liberal" and "a conservative", that would be the case.

But I digress. I don't believe any apology is necessary.



techstepgenr8tion
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16 Mar 2017, 10:19 pm

adifferentname wrote:
The context of the question is certainly cultural/political, but establishes a false dichotomy between liberal and conservativism. Even were it "a liberal" and "a conservative", that would be the case.

But I digress. I don't believe any apology is necessary.

The people who'd be openly talking about tolerance, and his having it or not having it based on his conservatism, are these centrist intellectuals?


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adifferentname
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17 Mar 2017, 4:22 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
The context of the question is certainly cultural/political, but establishes a false dichotomy between liberal and conservativism. Even were it "a liberal" and "a conservative", that would be the case.

But I digress. I don't believe any apology is necessary.

The people who'd be openly talking about tolerance, and his having it or not having it based on his conservatism, are these centrist intellectuals?


Oh, I quite agree that it's unlikely to be absent political agenda (though not impossible). However, I can only speak on behalf of myself and from my own perspective. I'm not especially interested in the genetic background of an argument, except where the argument is overtly dogmatic or partisan.

The point being, the likelihood is that this falls into that latter category, but it wasn't presented as such. It should therefore be given the benefit of the doubt and considered on its merits (of which there are scant few).