Inconsistencies and Interpretations

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I am becoming increasingly aware of glaring inconsistencies between my experiences of myself and my experiences of other people's experiences of myself.
The amount of energy that I put into trying to understand others and trying to be understood by others almost always seems to have no significant impact on the likelihood that miscommunication will be avoided. Often I cannot even comprehend how the miscommunication does occur, when it feels to me like other people are remembering things that never happened.

I have arrived at the conclusion that either myself or the vast majority of people I have interacted with are highly delusional. I am unsure how to proceed from this point.

Thoughts?

I think you may need to ask someone who speaks to you directly, especially if they speak to you in person, to tell you what's going on. Your message doesn't really show what is happening. Are there more specific questions someone might be able to answer for you? Or experiences people could share that might help you?

I feel for you. Everybody seems to have their own version of reality. Sometimes I wonder weather we were in the same room at the same time. Who do you want to believe, yourself or the other person? Does it really matter?

Our brains and our 5 senses are not infallible, that's why eye witnesses can come up with very different stories about what they saw. Do you take a vote or a consensus to find the truth?

I like to look for the wisdom of the crowd. What do most people say that resonates with me? So I get to pick the reality that makes the most sense to me.

I'm only going by my interpretation of what you wrote. You could have meant something totally different!

I try quite regularly to ask people about specific instances of the general trend I meant to describe in this post. Usually people either get offended that I am questioning things at all or there is no clear answer and the discussion becomes about semantics which the other person thinks is irrelevant and then gives up on quickly, resorting to frustration and accusing me of going in loops. When I ask about why it feels I am going in loops people usually just get more frustrated and don't actually tell me. At that point I generally resort to temporary abandonment of what I had hoped to understand in order to keep from burning bridges entirely, because there is no one in my life I am remotely close to on an emotional level (there was one person in my life I felt emotionally close to as far as I remember - I don't remember much about early childhood - but they became frustrated with me quickly too and gave up and now they don't wish to interact with me anymore) and even distant feeling social interaction is better than never talking to anyone.


I prefer not to maintain my perspective based on what I want to believe.


Truth is an interesting and sort of messed up multi-concept. I would say that in social practice, truth is simply opinions and their expression. I try to pay attention closely to as wide a variety of perspectives as I can and then continually update the justification for which I think certain things based on what seems to make the most sense to me at any given time. I find that talking to others is extremely helpful for me when it comes to the exploration of justification and perspectives, but most of the time people seem to find intense discussion annoying to the point of being nearly intolerable. I don't feel that I would know how to operate without consistently trying to contribute to as intense of a discussion as I can, unless the goal of the situation is simply to enjoy another's company in which case I usually don't have a lot to say. I certainly see the value of silence and being with someone without constantly investigating the world through perceptual negotiation, but the latter seems much much more important to me if the general direction I want to move is growth and contribution to the improvement of biological systems (and the social and economic systems tended to by them) on Earth. I have yet to find anyone who wants to discuss things with me who I want to discuss things with on a regular basis and who also wants to be still with me in some moments and just feel each others' presence.

I feel very satisfied with my mode of operation when it comes to myself, but it seems to cut me off entirely from being intimate (emotionally or physically) with other people. That being said about emotional or physical intimacy, I would certainly consider myself demisexual so, even though I think I would not have much trouble finding meaningless sex since people seem to find me physically and temperamentally attractive, physical intimacy feels worse to me than physical isolation when it is not founded on emotional intimacy.


I think I got a bit off topic but rambling seems to me like a pretty good way to look more closely at the perspectives I am already exploring internally.

I appreciate both of your responses and I hope that my response to your responses will feel adequate.

Your experience sounds frustrating at the very least, especially when people don't want to go into depth to help you. I'm somewhat like you in that I tend to prefer deep discussions over casual ones. Most people don't want to go there at all.

Do you think sharing specific examples would help us understand what you need help with here on the forum? Or are you looking for something else?

I am not really sure what I'm looking for.
Probably just emotional connection in some form haha.

It has become difficult to feel isolated from everyone all the time and still find enough meaning in life to make living feel worthwhile.

That's awful. I can understand it though. What do you do to try and lift that sadness or meaninglessness? Do all these miscommunications happen when you try to emotionally connect with others?

I often spend time watching and listening to lectures and discussions about things that I find interesting such as philosophy, psychology, behavioral biology, economics, permaculture, etc.
I also often play or write music.
I also work - in chunks - on a video game that I have been making entirely by myself because I haven't found anyone else who wants to make it with me. During the periods of time where I feel driven to work on that it usually alleviates some of the distress from loneliness.

These things feel like they are preparing me for a potentially meaningful way of living, but they don't feel meaningful enough in themselves to make constant loneliness worth experiencing. In order to live in a way that is meaningful enough to be worthwhile I think I would need to be able to contribute significant benefit to human societies, probably through the sharing of information. Unfortunately, I seem to be socially inept, or some-fucking-thing, which makes trying to have a significantly beneficial impact on other people seem pretty much like a waste of time.

To me, it seems that communication is the exception to the rule of miscommunication - at least when it comes to anything that is actually influential or leaves a lasting effect on perspectives.

The one person I have emotionally connected with I met online and had an extremely passionate relationship with for about 8 months, mostly online but we also spent about 5 weeks together in person in total (split up into chunks that were more than a week long each because we live far away from each other and traveling is expensive).
Meeting her changed everything for me. It was like existing finally made sense for the first time in my life. Like I was not alone for the first time ever.
I feel like I have no idea what happened really because she went pretty quickly from like eight months of saying that she couldn't believe how lucky she was for having me and that I made her feel happier than she ever imagined and that she never wanted anyone else to suddenly deciding she did want someone else and then basically throwing me away and blaming me for giving up on our relationship which is mind-boggling to me because I will still be here for her if she needs me even now after she told me that she feels like I was a waste of her time and she is disappointed in herself for not realizing it sooner.

Honestly, I don't know how much more energy I have for life in general though. I think the only reason I was still alive to meet her in the first place is because I am too stubborn to intentionally accept an option that doesn't feel good enough (like suicide: I don't actually want to be dead, I just don't want things to be how they are, don't want to be willing to take part in things no matter what those things are, and don't seem to be able to change the way things are to feel worthwhile for any significant amount of time)

words...

I don't know why semantics isn't focused on more than any other subject in school. I just don't want to keep floating in this void seeing people float by as if they can't tell if I am even a person or not and basically never coming into contact with anyone.

Because of the uncommonly honest, unguarded way you disclose yourself, my colleague on the spectrum insisted I read your thread because it would cause me to reach out. She was right. You seem like the kind of person we need for a small online group of assistants. So, I'll offer some details here. Let's see.

I'm an odd old professor--a student of how/why relationships thrive or die. Now, my interest is focused on why aspies (My kids use that term--in case it offends you.) anguish about being unnecessarily disconnected.


We are starting to translate a "real life” relationship learning program to a virtual app that can be used by more than university psych. students. It's not about money. The original program has helped people on the spectrum understand how they connect and disconnect from their intimate relationships. Over the years about 25% of my grad students at UCLA were aspie. Their ambition to become professionals motivated them to cope with basic issues of conversation (The key substance of relationships). Almost all started to turn their lives around after 10 weeks of learning new concepts and practicing them in real conversation. Now my problem is recruiting 3-6 intellectually gifted aspies (Who are not psych grads) to collaborate with us in shaping the new program. We want collaborators--not "subjects" to learn our stuff and react to the ways we put it online. I call it Mutual Support, shaped by respect and real honesty.

This invitation does nothing for bringing more meaning to your existence, the distress, and being alone. I'll try to offer some small help to your posts next week. The struggle is familiar to me. Really.

Meanwhile, let me know if you’re interested. I'll be glad to answer any questions about our work or myself. The term "our" means a small group of professors and a pro writer --young to old, aspie, to "aspie-lite", to neurotypical. None of us are cognitive behavioral types, nor interested in converting spectrum folks into typical members of the culture. We are humanistic psychologists (google it) and we like aspie minds.

I was rather surprised to find your response upon returning to this thread. A form of surprise that does actually include some hope of increased meaning, I think, because I've come to think that responsibility (the kind that is on board with a relatable direction and value system) is one of the most effective ways I have experienced an increase in meaning in my life. Since everything is meaningful, I guess it would make sense that even just occupying spacetime/timespace with more experience would make the whole feel more meaningful, whether or not the additions were individually of notable importance.

Before I say more, I should probably add (I don't think I mentioned it in this thread but in my introduction on this forum I did) that I have no ASD diagnosis. I have suspected it of myself for many years and had multiple people mention it to me including my mother - my father seems to exhibit signs of being on the spectrum as well. I took an Adult Autism Spectrum Quotient Test last fall and my results indicated clinically significant levels of autism. Meeting a few people in my life who were diagnosed with Asperger's (I guess before the DSM-V) caused me initially to wonder about myself. Pursuing an actual diagnosis never really seemed necessary or relevant to me because I find it interesting to learn about and search for insight in whether or not I would be diagnosed that way by anyone I might pursue a diagnosis from. Additionally, the way I understand many diagnoses seems more complicated than could result in a definite answer. I guess I mean to address the unavoidable subjectivity in all perspectives involved in any diagnostic process.

I feel uncomfortable saying "I" so much but it often seems most practical.

What you've described sounds like something I would be quite interested in participating in, though I have many doubts about myself and can't help but wonder if it selfish of me to desire involvement in any social interaction more serious than casual conversation online with strangers.. It sounds interesting to me both for the purpose of learning more about it and because I very much want to contribute to collaborative endeavors to help other people. I am currently working with a clinical psychologist who is part of a humanistic counseling group inspired by humanistic psychology (I have also worked with other members of that group in the past) and I think that I like the inclusiveness of the approach.

I am not sure what specifically to ask but I'd like to know any more information you wish to share if you do still think I seem like an appropriate potential fit despite my lack of diagnosis.

Good.
Meaning seems the key in your life right now.
Diagnosis not an issue for us.
Yes, I'm guessing u can help and get some important stuff to melt some distress---after some serious learning. Not easy.
I'll try responding to all of your post tomorrow.
WP was down earlier tonight, so was my laptop.
I'm done with this day.
Goodnight.

Regeniversity, what a heartbreaking end to a passionate relationship! Sometimes people are very hurtful when they're angry, not sure if her anger had anything to do with her words or her sense that you gave up on the relationship? Also, have you ever tried a jam session or other musician's group? What was your experience, if you don't mind sharing?

Colina, your research sounds fascinating. Are the psych grads just beta testers of the app, or is the app geared toward anyone who's had trouble connecting with others?

Here’s a response to your last post about meaning, diagnoses, doubts about contributing, and wanting to know more about our aspie work.
Meaning. I guess the core of your message says “The thought of taking some responsibility for helping –even a little-- gives me a bit of hope, some sense of meaningful connection.” I’m pleased to know that, because, over the years, as a helper it became evident that depression feeds off meaninglessness.
Diagnosis. There’s a bloody history of us mental health professionals struggling to make simple sense of psychological distress. As a profession we are only starting to grasp how difficult it is to get to simple. ASD criteria are far from simple—at times simplistic. The ASD diagnosis does offer relief from meaninglessness, (especially to women), but such diagnoses can also dehumanize, and fuck-up self- concepts. Experienced pros can spot enough aspie characteristics from a 10 minute conversation to realize there is an aspie-like human talking. No big deal. Your thread, your style of disclosing tells me I’m communicating with a gifted young guy with aspie traits. Traits can also be terrific. So, I’m not needing an official label.
Doubts about contributing. Well, we will know more after you read a sketch of the program, and get your reaction (along with 2-5 others). At first, we need uncommon honesty about understanding our public description of what’s involved. We need your reaction to a three – person role-playing exercise that’s at the heart of things. Then we need u to stick around and learn a psychological framework that boils down conversation into six major ways we express intentions—figure at least an hour a week for 2 months. Let’s see----we will need wild ideas for building a network of aspies who have successfully learned how to use these six ways. “Ways “ of talking, like asking questions, disclosing feelings etc. Something like verbal sentences. I won’t give u our techy terms until you’re firmly on board enough to complain. Learning to observe and use these 6 (OK, call them tools, talk tools.) is the goal. Our grand goal is to teach aspies how to get comfortable doing conversations. We’ve done it in-real-life with psych students, and aim to make an online version for non-psychology majors----a virtual home course.
Oops got to run and get malware out of my windows 10, and can’t finish now. Hope I wrote enough for u to ask questions. Since this is a public thread, your helpers here are invited to ask about our “Trio” program. Sorry –no time to proof.

DataB4:
I don't know what she actually feels or thinks or anything, I guess. I wish I could. I thought that I did before but now I see that the area I thought I had explored is actually still darkness and chaos. I can't go back and try to explore it again though. Now I can only go forward into new darkness and chaos with less confidence in my ability to know when I'm seeing, not that I had a lot of confidence in that to begin with... I have gone to jam sessions with other people before. In the past I tried to get together a few small bands with different groups of people. Mostly, the people involved were not interested enough for it to go anywhere but one group did seem like it had potential. The groups I tried to get together early on were mostly initiated by myself with the help of another person and basically we got together and no one knew what to do so I just played stuff that I had written and asked if they wanted to try and add to it. That was how most of those jam sessions went. More recently, I haven't been writing as much music because I tend to go through cycles of deep interest like spending months doing music stuff all the time every day and then losing interest in that and spending months working on my video game all the time every day and then losing interest in that and spending months watching videos on YouTube of lectures from different universities and discussions and podcasts all the time every day and then losing interest in that and spending months making art all the time every day and then losing interest in that and spending months (during the summer) focused on gardening, cooking, and exercise... and over and over. Sometimes there is crossover and sometimes they last for a month or less but generally it is like 1-2 months of each one with a bit of blurring at the edges before changing into another section of the cycle. Anyway.... I got a bit off track but I think that the fact I am like that has gotten in the way of the group that seemed like it had potential. The other person I was working with in that group who is a song writer has a similar cycle of his own that he goes through but he also works a lot so it was just really hard to get ourselves lined up to be available as much as ourselves and the non-songwriting people in the group wanted.

colina:
I would say that when things feel more meaningless, waking up is much more unpleasant. I have come to find the idea that life is suffering and that meaning is how to get through it, though it cannot actually be overcome, resonates with me a lot.
I would like to read the sketch and public description of your program and share my thoughts about it any time that I can. Just from what you've said, the fact that a three person role-playing exercise is involved is very interesting to me. I think it sounds like a good idea. The times I have felt most capable of interacting with others were while playing role-playing games. Both during my childhood, just playing pretend, and more recently things like Dungeons and Dragons. My current thought is something like.. I wonder how much potential there is to socialize individuals later in life, as opposed to being socialized around age 3 or whatever is the conventionally understood time that children are socialized.
I definitely have an hour of time each week that I can be available for.
The only question for you that really comes to mind at this point (besides curiosity about the 6 talk tools) is, what is necessary from me at this point in order to move forward/get more involved?

I hope that you were able to resolve your malware issue without too much difficulty.

I get that. It seems like I take criticism more personally the less confident I feel. That said, relationships are a two-way street, and in your case, it doesn’t sound like your ex communicated what she needed until it was too late.


That’s brave of you to get jam sessions together and do originals that you personally wrote. Ever think to try covers so that at least you could agree on some musical tastes ahead of time? Or go to open mic nights where you can have covers and originals both? Over time, as musicians get together, there can be a lot of room for chatting, and at least you’d have a common interest to start with.


You mentioned that you go through months at a time with one interest taking up almost all your free time. Although I’ve never gone that far with an interest, I do often get very involved with what I’m doing. So I might realize that oops, it’s been too long now since I talked to So-and-So. What happens if you set up things to do in advance and put them on your calendar and/or have your phone remind you? That way, you’ve committed to other people and you can’t say you forgot about it.





Well said. If life had no challenge at all, it would also have no meaning. I would

add that meaning enhances the good times as much as the bad. I’m not always good at this, but I try to focus on all the little, positive things in life, since I often feel discouraged in my search for purpose.


Here’s one little gratitude exercise I find helpful: I take one thing I’m grateful for, and break that down into how and why I’m grateful. The idea is to imagine myself enjoying the things I’m grateful for, bringing up positive memories and really feeling the emotion of gratitude.


Colina, what do humanistic psychologists have to say about meaning and values? I realize you can’t post all that here, but maybe you could suggest some reading on the subject.

I'll try responding to both of you without entangling our exchanges.This is my first exchange on any forum, so help me out when I break custom or if u see a better way for me to participate--without lecturing.

[i][i]Colina, your research sounds fascinating. Are the psych grads just beta testers of the app, or is the app geared toward anyone who's had trouble connecting with others?[/i][/i] [how to italicize?]

It's not primarily research, but developing an ONLINE app that mimics our Trio method for teaching psych students at various universities. The weren't beta testers, but young adults who have relied on intellectual strengths to survive. They came to my courses with real fear about learning about close-conversation, and then practicing in a private 3 person environments. Last year I thought of finding a small group of bright aspies who could look at our written drafts of online instructions, tell us what they thought about making it fit their needs. We want young non-psychologist Collaborators--not just testers.
The original real life version was for geeky advanced students which means bright people who have lots of relationship trouble.Regeniversity felt like a good possibility for several reasons including his way of taking interpersonal communication seriously--carefully.
Actually, we will be recruiting more women than men because of my profession's failure to diagnose women early: their social skills differ from male aspies. England is more advanced; starting to recognize a distinct female phenotype.