Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
21 Mar 2017, 4:18 pm
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Yo El wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
However, I would always prefer to patronize businesses which forbid any religious expression in the public area. Personally, the whole idea of the hijab disgusts me, modesty disgusts me, and the kind of religion which boils down to believing it because some old douchebag said it disgusts me beyond my ability to decently express.
That would be a violation of the First Amendment of the constitional law which clearly states someone's right to freely express his religion. Restrictions on religious freedom have no home in a democracy and is something you would find in a place like Saudi Arabia.Yours is a sick view and inaccurate view.
Are you saying your government broke your constitutional law when trying to prevent the Branch Dividian from practicing the suicide aspect of their cult?
How about the law that tells religions that they cannot protest near where soldiers are being buried. Does that law go against your poorly written constitution?
Regards
DL
My oops.
Regards
DL
21 Mar 2017, 4:19 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
If they want to keep calling me a bigot after all that, I really can't argue any further.
Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
Do you also hate religious people or only the religion?
Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
jrjones9933
Veteran
Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage
21 Mar 2017, 4:24 pm
Shahunshah wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Citing the text of the First Amendment is good, but none of it applies simply and literally. There's a lot of case law, and in some cases, different Circuit courts have different positions on it. In your comments, you sort of understand what's going on, and I want to encourage that. Getting lectured on a subject by someone who doesn't understand the complexity of the topic will never go over well.
Look I don't think Yo El was saying something uninformed. Mike Huckabee said a similar thing in that abortion violated the 15th amendment. It is just how you interpret things. But heck I am 16 so maybe I don't know.
Huckabee's argument hinges on his belief that life and personhood and citizenship and constitutional rights begin at conception, ending those same rights for the incubator.
_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade
21 Mar 2017, 4:28 pm
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.
Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.
Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?
The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE
If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?
How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?
Regards
DL
In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.
Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.
Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?
The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE
If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?
How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?
Regards
DL
Yes, for the Muslim women living under the real Sharia like KSA and Afghanistan, they are slaves even against their will.
But here the thing:
Most Muslims live in denial, and most Muslims living in non-Sharia countries (hint: most muslim-dominated countries) believe in an embellished version of Islam. In particular most Muslim women believe in a very very embellished version of Islam while they they ignore or turn a blind eye on the verses that clearly diminish their status, maybe they only read embellished narratives and never read the Qur'an fully. The Arabic dialect of Qur'an is an old tribe-specific, and it's not exactly the same as the Classic Arabic, it's somehow like Old English to modern English - I would understand it better if I read its English or French translation than in its original language.
For example, the other day I was in an outing with classmates, and one of my christian classmates mentioned the polygamy in Islam, a muslim classmate, who is a Muslim young woman (not veiled and wears short skirts too which isn't uncommon here) answered by repeating a popular verse's interpretation how no ordinary man's love can be perfectly equal between two women, therefore he's not deemed for marrying more than one. In other term, she believes that Allah allows only monogamy for non-prophet men.
This is an extremely popular narrative I've heard from moderate and even conservative Muslim women who reject, despise and even mock the idea of polygamy hence why the concept is not popular in many muslim places except in the Arabia. (Less than 1% of Muslims in the world practice Polygamy, according to stats, at least it's the figure for the registered marriages)
In fact, women in these countries, like in Christian countries, are more likely to be more religious than men; and for some reason less likely to be agnostic/atheists (this is a world phenomena).
So no, these are not slaves, they just don't believe in the real Islam though like most Muslim men. They live on the blue pill.
This was well thought out but I cannot see how you can say they are not slaves when there is often a price tag attached to the proposals.
Regards
DL
21 Mar 2017, 4:34 pm
The_Walrus wrote:
Not sure "slave" is a useful term, but people and particularly women in lots of highly theocratic Islamic societies are severely oppressed; describing them as "not slaves" would be damning with faint praise. The vast majority of Muslim women in non-Muslim countries, or more liberal Islamic countries, no, they're not remotely slavery.
All true, but that leaves a hell of a lot of Muslim women slaves in the other more right wing Muslim countries.
Further, even where Muslims are not a majority, you have Honor killings and that shows that some Muslims even in the West are putting Sharia above the law of the land.
Regards
DL
21 Mar 2017, 4:41 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
This was well thought out but I cannot see how you can say they are not slaves when there is often a price tag attached to the proposals.
Regards
DL
You mean a dowry?Regards
DL
No. I mean a negotiated sale price.
Regards
DL
But the real question here does their faith allow it or not. And if it does are there any sources available that sais so?
21 Mar 2017, 4:42 pm
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
If they want to keep calling me a bigot after all that, I really can't argue any further.
Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
Do you also hate religious people or only the religion?Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
I hate that people sell themselves to immoral religions.
You might wonder how to define love and hate when the great Gods of love and peace, Yahweh and Allah, have indicated that the vast majority of those they love unconditionally, will be tortured uselessly in hell for an awful long time.
There are slight variances between the Gods mentioned so do allow some semantics.
Your hair splitting and trying to dived the person from his religion is foolish.
If the inquisitor or Jihadist is swinging his sword, who should you hate?
Him or his religion that has conditioned him to take your head off?
Regards
DL
21 Mar 2017, 5:04 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
If they want to keep calling me a bigot after all that, I really can't argue any further.
Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
Do you also hate religious people or only the religion?Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
I hate that people sell themselves to immoral religions.
You might wonder how to define love and hate when the great Gods of love and peace, Yahweh and Allah, have indicated that the vast majority of those they love unconditionally, will be tortured uselessly in hell for an awful long time.
There are slight variances between the Gods mentioned so do allow some semantics.
Your hair splitting and trying to dived the person from his religion is foolish.
If the inquisitor or Jihadist is swinging his sword, who should you hate?
Him or his religion that has conditioned him to take your head off?
Regards
DL
Inquisitors are disobeying the word of God. You can't hold God responsible for their action. But it's not like you are going to believe me. So I don't see the whole point of this. It's like taking an example like Stalin( inquisitors) who was responsible for the death of millions of people. And then you are like, well Stalin was an atheist( christian). And saying atheism( christianity) causes devaluation of the human life, deaths, mass murdering and corruption. Soviet Union is a clear example of how getting rid of religion doesn't make the world some happy utopia. Humans still are humans and they will still steal, kill, rape, murder, lie, gossip etc. And atheists aren't the exception of the rule.
21 Mar 2017, 5:07 pm
GnosticBishop wrote:
Yo El wrote:
[
But the real question here does their faith allow it or not. And if it does are there any sources available that sais so?
But the real question here does their faith allow it or not. And if it does are there any sources available that sais so?
Google Mohammed's youngest wife.
You will see that buying child brides is a long and accepted Muslim tradition.
Regards
DL
I'm talking about direct sources straight outta the book. I like primary sources nobody can corrupt them. But I have already heard about the story of Aisha and Muhammed I don't question your legitimacy. I just want to know the exact place of the story.
The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 32,886
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.
22 Mar 2017, 5:10 am
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.
Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.
Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?
The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE
If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?
How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?
Regards
DL
In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.
Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.
Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?
The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE
If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?
How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?
Regards
DL
Yes, for the Muslim women living under the real Sharia like KSA and Afghanistan, they are slaves even against their will.
But here the thing:
Most Muslims live in denial, and most Muslims living in non-Sharia countries (hint: most muslim-dominated countries) believe in an embellished version of Islam. In particular most Muslim women believe in a very very embellished version of Islam while they they ignore or turn a blind eye on the verses that clearly diminish their status, maybe they only read embellished narratives and never read the Qur'an fully. The Arabic dialect of Qur'an is an old tribe-specific, and it's not exactly the same as the Classic Arabic, it's somehow like Old English to modern English - I would understand it better if I read its English or French translation than in its original language.
For example, the other day I was in an outing with classmates, and one of my christian classmates mentioned the polygamy in Islam, a muslim classmate, who is a Muslim young woman (not veiled and wears short skirts too which isn't uncommon here) answered by repeating a popular verse's interpretation how no ordinary man's love can be perfectly equal between two women, therefore he's not deemed for marrying more than one. In other term, she believes that Allah allows only monogamy for non-prophet men.
This is an extremely popular narrative I've heard from moderate and even conservative Muslim women who reject, despise and even mock the idea of polygamy hence why the concept is not popular in many muslim places except in the Arabia. (Less than 1% of Muslims in the world practice Polygamy, according to stats, at least it's the figure for the registered marriages)
In fact, women in these countries, like in Christian countries, are more likely to be more religious than men; and for some reason less likely to be agnostic/atheists (this is a world phenomena).
So no, these are not slaves, they just don't believe in the real Islam though like most Muslim men. They live on the blue pill.
This was well thought out but I cannot see how you can say they are not slaves when there is often a price tag attached to the proposals.
Regards
DL
Again it's something that only exist in the islamist sharia countries, where the dower is really treated as a bride price. I am not denying that women are treated as slaves in countries such as : Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, the conservative communities of Iran, and some parts of Pakistan and maybe in the poorest class of Sudan.
In the less conservative countries, you may still find Dower tradition; they call it a 'mahr'.
Dower means the amount paid by groom to bride, dowry is the opposite, according to dictionary.
Some pre-islamic traditions in non-really-Arab Arabized civilizations still remain: Traditionally, in Egypt for instance, at least among the non-MB and non-salafist people; the bride or her family often bring dowry to marriage often to cover the wedding costs yet the groom may contribute, while groom/his family covers the housing costs as dower yet the groom's family may contribute too, furniture and others costs are usually divided; so it's a dual system of dower/dowry and often negotiable. Doesn't it ring a bell? In lebanon for instance, the mahr is symbolic, almost all costs are divided especially among the middle class yet the groom usually contribute more; even among Christians, the men often contribute more.
So it's like a price tag being put on a bride in some market; yet some greedy brides or greedy parents may treat it as such if they feel their daughter is so desirable.
As for the child brides, the info on Mohammad's child bride comes as a shock to most moderate Muslims; a lot also deny it and convince themselves with specific interpretations that claim she was 16 or 19, not 9.
Again I tell you, most muslims don't know really their religion.
This was a social experiment in a Sunni-majority area in Beirut, the old man, the cemeraman and the child are actors- click on CC to read the english translations, watch it to the end:
Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 22 Mar 2017, 6:38 am, edited 6 times in total.
22 Mar 2017, 5:31 am
jrjones9933 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Citing the text of the First Amendment is good, but none of it applies simply and literally. There's a lot of case law, and in some cases, different Circuit courts have different positions on it. In your comments, you sort of understand what's going on, and I want to encourage that. Getting lectured on a subject by someone who doesn't understand the complexity of the topic will never go over well.
Look I don't think Yo El was saying something uninformed. Mike Huckabee said a similar thing in that abortion violated the 15th amendment. It is just how you interpret things. But heck I am 16 so maybe I don't know.
Huckabee's argument hinges on his belief that life and personhood and citizenship and constitutional rights begin at conception, ending those same rights for the incubator.
23 Mar 2017, 5:50 pm
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Yo El wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
If they want to keep calling me a bigot after all that, I really can't argue any further.
Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
Do you also hate religious people or only the religion?Any person today that does not hate Christianity and Islam, is not a moral person.
Both religions are intolerant, homophobic and misogynous and have grown themselves through violence instead of good deeds.
No moral man would promote either religion or their Gods of war.
Regards
DL
I hate that people sell themselves to immoral religions.
You might wonder how to define love and hate when the great Gods of love and peace, Yahweh and Allah, have indicated that the vast majority of those they love unconditionally, will be tortured uselessly in hell for an awful long time.
There are slight variances between the Gods mentioned so do allow some semantics.
Your hair splitting and trying to dived the person from his religion is foolish.
If the inquisitor or Jihadist is swinging his sword, who should you hate?
Him or his religion that has conditioned him to take your head off?
Regards
DL
Inquisitors are disobeying the word of God. You can't hold God responsible for their action. But it's not like you are going to believe me. So I don't see the whole point of this. It's like taking an example like Stalin( inquisitors) who was responsible for the death of millions of people. And then you are like, well Stalin was an atheist( christian). And saying atheism( christianity) causes devaluation of the human life, deaths, mass murdering and corruption. Soviet Union is a clear example of how getting rid of religion doesn't make the world some happy utopia. Humans still are humans and they will still steal, kill, rape, murder, lie, gossip etc. And atheists aren't the exception of the rule.
If a theist believes in a creator God, then of course he should believe God is responsible.
Sure they blame men but they can only (intelligently, if they have intelligence) follow what they would see as our God given natures.
Sure, Christians and others will throw out their free will card but cannot explain how no one has the free will to not sin or do evil when we have to to evolve and survive. Our evolution forces us to both compete and cooperate and when we compete, as we must, we create what theists see as evil. Meanwhile they themselves do the same evils as everyone else.
Regards
DL
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