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naturalplastic
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21 Oct 2017, 1:44 pm

Sounds the OP getting off head medications.

A) This is too heavy a question to attempt while "having chemical imbalances" in your head.

B) Whatever is really bugging you..its probably something to take to "Members Only", or to "The Haven". And not here.



auntblabby
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21 Oct 2017, 8:59 pm

most fascinating for me, are the numerous stories of transplant recipients who report sudden preoccupations with hobbies or vocations of the previous organ's owner whom they never knew while the donors were alive.



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22 Oct 2017, 8:51 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I'm starting to dive into Jung right now and as far as I can tell with his claim of the archetypes he seems to be making quite a direct case for the sort of Platonic background to the universe that someone like Sir Roger Penrose might make, just that he's validating the ideas from the clinical psychology and comparative religion direction. If I understand what he's saying correctly its that archetypes even antedate symbols themselves and that common or powerful symbols/mandalas are the result of the archetypes, which are strictly structure and hold no content themselves, being clothed and fitted with concepts and emblems that we can understand. He also makes a clear distinction between archetypes and types, ie. he's not talking about something like a meme where it catches on when people see it for it's internal practical value but rather people will be using and employing archetypes that they've never heard about, read about, etc. and they can arrive at symbol sets independently that have come up before but which that person would have no access to (he gives the example of the schizophrenic who had a Mithraic adept/initiator complex and all of the symbols the man were using weren't available in print until four years after Jung had talked to him).

This is also another reason why I tend to shake my head at people's attempts to either over-extend Occam's razor to shave off things that they personally don't see a need for in the universe (something that empiricism reflexively has to overpower - otherwise there'd be no advancement) or on the other hand people trying to metaphysically explain the universe in verities based on what they can imagine with their capacity for imagination formulated on the basis of what they currently know or believe they know. I think if science has showed us anything repeatedly its that the universe is doing what it's doing and structured the way it is regardless of what we know or don't know at any given point, that and fault or shortage of human imagination will never square a theoretical or philosophic map to the universe simply because the person entertaining the delusions or falsehoods in question had their heart in the right place. If the later were true and 'heart' was what made successes or failures of experiments the scientific method would never have gotten off of the ground. Nature isn't inclined to give out participation trophies and for thousands of years part of the litmus test for human survival was that if your sense of reality mapped on to actuality poorly you'd pay the difference with your life.

I think another thing we constantly have to consider is frame. For example in my daily life I mostly function like a physicalist with some direct/routine nods to the more metaphysical aspects that I like to staple in. Most of us find reductive materialism highly intuitive and almost common sense because it seems to fit the relevant range that we operate in like a glove. It's also part of why, with so many of the most profound and truly odd/unexplainable experiences I have had their effect on my thinking will last a bit but overtime, with the constant wash of daily events I'm almost forced to question the veracity of such experiences not because I've found any facts or new insights into the nature of those experiences that would disqualify them but simply because they don't at all fit the relevant range of what I see and experience on a daily basis. I've had many times as well where I can re-immerse myself in another state, see that it just seems obvious that consciousness is eternal and regardless of whether we're at all human-like after death or whether any trace of imprint from a life is still there that it all goes on but all of that can be snapped away almost as fast by a later set of circumstances, really profound observation of a different rule set, and it can start looking like the dream I might have had the night before where I was getting profound epiphanies about one thing or another but lost it within a minute of waking up.

I think all of these things, especially the frame problem, do a lot of damage to our objectivity. It's also why I'm increasingly trying not to sweat people's emotional knee-jerks to one type of information or another, especially when I said above that I see it enough in myself to understand how and why it happens to people.


This is all interesting, and demonstrates that you have a truly open mind.

Practically, reductive materialism gets results, and is a corrective to excesses of earlier modes of thinking that survive. I wouldn't like to chuck that baby out of that bathwater. But...


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techstepgenr8tion
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22 Oct 2017, 9:50 am

I don't think empiricism and the scientific method have any valid contender for their replacement at the current time. Even if the STEM fields all decided that we'd moved beyond past models of consciousness and had to consider it ubiquitous to the universe there'd be no methodology replacement in the pursuit of human knowledge unless some part of what they uncovered actually gave them more accurate tools and even then I'd think those tools would only be applicable to certain kinds of study whereas the rest of the field would still be science as usual.


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22 Oct 2017, 7:18 pm

The Great Mistake™ is attempting to hold a fixed self-image at all (i.e., defining yourself). It is, apart from being totally unnecessary to human functioning, a source of grief for all concerned. We become ourselves as our encounter with the world, and it is not entirely up to us how that plays out. When our activity is at odds with our self-image, this plainly demonstrates that our self-image is, at that moment, mistaken; its only truth is its enactment.



wornlight
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22 Oct 2017, 7:28 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
One of the more interesting descriptions I've heard of the nirvanic experience is it being called The Great Day 'Be With Us'. It's the day where the sun rises and never sets again (in a grand metaphysical sense). The day when one realizes they're floating on a vast sea in a bubble and they figure out that they can pop that bubble and rejoin the rest of the universe in a sort of timelessness. I believe most of that came from Manly P Hall's Self Unfoldment by Discipline of Realization, if not possibly AP Sinnett.


The walls of that bubble are imaginary to begin with. The lines we draw around ourselves no more divide us from the whole of reality than drawing a line around your neck would separate your head from your body. The sense of separation does not separate anything from anything. The "nirvanic experience" is none other than the direct cognition of ordinary reality, as it is. The metaphor of a sun that never sets is apt, but not because everything is happily ever after (after realization). The Original Light, once seen, reveals itself in/as all things and in all states, not that it was ever hidden. It is not a separate state.



techstepgenr8tion
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22 Oct 2017, 7:37 pm

wornlight wrote:
The walls of that bubble are imaginary to begin with. The lines we draw around ourselves no more divide us from the whole of reality than drawing a line around your neck would separate your head from your body. The sense of separation does not separate anything from anything. The "nirvanic experience" is none other than the direct cognition of ordinary reality, as it is. The metaphor of a sun that never sets is apt, but not because everything is happily ever after (after realization). The Original Light, once seen, reveals itself in/as all things and in all states, not that it was ever hidden. It is not a separate state.

You've achieved paranirvana? I just ask because, even assuming it exists, we can wrap it in our own metaphors all day and have no clue whether or not they have any resemblance that's inferred by the actual thing.

What I remember of it made it sound like it had something to do with our individual sensory sphere popping. Well before that state, again following the narrative, there's a state of being something almost like a deity wandering the solar system. On that account I'm not sure if this is something I'd feel comfortable psychologizing away in a 'life on earth' sort of manner. If you want to talk about ego de-emphasis and things of the like I have a feeling that would correlate to what's being described here in the way that sleep might correlate to death. They're of course a similar mode of activity but clearly not on the same absolute level.


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23 Oct 2017, 9:43 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
You've achieved paranirvana?

I would not put it that way. Serious Buddhist practitioners, who find qualified teachers, go on retreats, and follow instructions, tend to get enlightened, more or less. If you sincerely inquire into the matter, you can see for yourself.
Quote:
What I remember of it made it sound like it had something to do with our individual sensory sphere popping. Well before that state, again following the narrative, there's a state of being something almost like a deity wandering the solar system.

For a legitimate account from a Theravada perspective, see The Progress of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
and compare with Zen's Ten Ox-herding Pictures


States and stages, and the ways we talk about them, are somewhat peculiar to modes of practice.



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Oct 2017, 10:14 am

wornlight wrote:
I would not put it that way. Serious Buddhist practitioners, who find qualified teachers, go on retreats, and follow instructions, tend to get enlightened, more or less. If you sincerely inquire into the matter, you can see for yourself.

Ok, I may have either misread your first response or taken it for implying something that it wasn't. It sounded like you were suggesting that paranirvana and what people call, in the context of life on earth, getting 'enlightened' were the same thing or I might have at least read (perhaps per lack of manual distinction) that you were saying that they were of the same order of magnitude vs two things of the same form at vastly different orders of magnitude. That's what I was trying to draw clarity on.

Technically in my own practice I've been picking away more at the Hermetic Kabbala and western mystery tradition route (been in two instructional orders for a little over four years) but I find that a lot of stuff, especially anything that touches the Rosicrucian or Golden Dawn current, tends to mix and match a fair amount between eastern and western analogies (which in some cases perhaps they can - such as the three gunas and the salt/sulfur/mercury in western alchemy). From the synchretic kabbalistic perspective it's all the light of Kether and often the wall behind Key 7: The Chariot is used to designate the artificial enclosure that creates the field of experience (probably designating Binah at the top of Cheth) and has us experiencing the polarities rather than a consistent experience of the unidividuated light. Either way it's one thing to know it on a philosophic level and another to incorporate that directly into your field of experience where it's fully consequential rather than an article of faith. What stumps me perhaps a little is that I don't know, encased in human biology as we're used to it, whether the full feat is even possible or whether a person incarnate is limited to a series of glimpses where they can know it for certain but can't necessarily live it on a constant basis.


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23 Oct 2017, 2:07 pm

Quote:
Ok, I may have either misread your first response or taken it for implying something that it wasn't. It sounded like you were suggesting that paranirvana and what people call, in the context of life on earth, getting 'enlightened' were the same thing or I might have at least read (perhaps per lack of manual distinction) that you were saying that they were of the same order of magnitude vs two things of the same form at vastly different orders of magnitude. That's what I was trying to draw clarity on.

I was not talking about two different things, if that helps.

Quote:
From the synchretic kabbalistic perspective it's all the light of Kether and often the wall behind Key 7: The Chariot is used to designate the artificial enclosure that creates the field of experience (probably designating Binah at the top of Cheth) and has us experiencing the polarities rather than a consistent experience of the unindividuated light. Either way it's one thing to know it on a philosophic level and another to incorporate that directly into your field of experience where it's fully consequential rather than an article of faith.


Incorporating that understanding into your experience is a stage [or series of stages] that ultimately leads beyond any privileged mode of perception.

Quote:
What stumps me perhaps a little is that I don't know, encased in human biology as we're used to it, whether the full feat is even possible or whether a person incarnate is limited to a series of glimpses where they can know it for certain but can't necessarily live it on a constant basis.


The punchline is that there never was any conflict between the relative and the absolute, the many and the one, form and emptiness, manifestation and source (pick your flavor). You are already living it. "If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it." From Fukanzazengi, "The way of the Buddha is intrinsically accomplished and perfect." Since reality is already not broken, there is nothing you can do or not do that will fix it. However, you have to try a certain amount before you can fail comprehensively.



techstepgenr8tion
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23 Oct 2017, 7:38 pm

wornlight wrote:
Quote:
What stumps me perhaps a little is that I don't know, encased in human biology as we're used to it, whether the full feat is even possible or whether a person incarnate is limited to a series of glimpses where they can know it for certain but can't necessarily live it on a constant basis.


The punchline is that there never was any conflict between the relative and the absolute, the many and the one, form and emptiness, manifestation and source (pick your flavor). You are already living it. "If you do not see the Way, you do not see it even as you walk on it." From Fukanzazengi, "The way of the Buddha is intrinsically accomplished and perfect." Since reality is already not broken, there is nothing you can do or not do that will fix it. However, you have to try a certain amount before you can fail comprehensively.

Part of that seems to strongly suggest that there's no 'divine' as a unified or self-aware actor, rather it's just the aggregate of the consciousness intrinsic to the matter in the universe and whatever else is underpinning that.

Increasingly over the past year I've been growing more sympathetic again as to why many well-known atheists are practicing Buddhists as well as why they can pull all kinds of 30 or 40 year veteran practitioners out who are also reductive materialists - ie. it's incredibly difficult to digest the idea that there's a self-aware or self-conscious being with the power to prevent exquisite human suffering and, worse, is pursuing its will to walk out things like the Russian Revolution and forty plus years of their gulag system, the Chinese Revolution or the Japanese invasion of China before that, the Khmer Rouge, or everyone's favorite topic - the fasces and swaztikas. A being who could knowingly watch the equivalent of banned snuff-films being made on an industrial scale with sheer detatched fascination at the energy patterns generated tends to be just as morally horrifying to its lab mice (even if it is it's own lab mice) whether that entity would meet people as Zeus on a golden throne with lightning bolts for the non-believer or whether it's the great ball of light many NDE'ers know and love who love-tackles the departed like a giant golden retriever.

My own way of dealing with that problem more recently, as it hit me harder, was considering the possibility that all of this actually evolved with the universe and that it's secondary to matter or intrinsic to matter rather than matter being secondary to it. Whether it's Gordon White's take on animism or whether it's Mellen-Thomas Benedict's account of his daily conversations with the light and the sort of story where the planets and stars are getting to know themselves through conscious life and that we're the tip of a still red-hot spear, those accounts at least exonerate the universal consciousness as not having created the cannibalistic rules of the game which, I like what Eric Weinstein said about his brother Brett's take on evolution - it's a spelling b that ends in genocide.

I think for those of us who want to line ourselves up with reality in a way where our moral compasses aren't banging against imaginary or superstitious issues (something the west inherited and is all too self-conscious of these days) or whether we're concerned that we can create exquisite suffering to minerals by industrial processes, we want to be well informed moral actors. This is sort of where the idea that it's a matter of the sacred vs the profane also bothers me a lot because we can't be well-informed moral actors without knowing certain things about the intrinsic basis of the universe as well as seriously questioning our old assumptions that if it doesn't have neurons it isn't conscious (which I think is quite a leap without credible empirical evidence for or against its proposition). The people out there who are chewing on the AI issue and concerned over whether we might create conscious robots and whether we'd be committing a moral crime in generating new forms of suffering - I think they're perhaps on the cusp of knocking down the old 19th century wall of protection on anything without a pulse being fair game for practically anything.

Reading Jung and having to point myself back toward Platonism made me a bit nervous because it does seem to suggest that Atman/Adam Kadmon is out there, in 'here' (ie. me), and all around. It may very well be true that this is all a big loving game that we earthlings don't have the stomachs to play, but getting the chills a the thought of self-aware deity watching over us again reminds me of all the reasons why most people have grave difficulty accepting the 'We are all one God' type of thinking on a particularly literal or practical level.


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