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ASPartOfMe
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09 Apr 2017, 6:16 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say they see them as an illness and not people. Autism Speaks acknowledges them as living breathing humans . Or otherwise why would an organization focus so much energy on therapies for autistic people. I know a young girl at my school who couldn't properly speak until intensive ABA therapy.

Isn't autism arguably an illness if you have say epilepsy, crippling sensory issues and can't talk?

I know another autistic girl who is extremely smart but is thought of as ret*d because she can't speak a word. Maybe a cure would be good for her.


Autism is a mental disorder/disease. I think it's genetic. I take a couple of medications that help me to function more normally and, to a degree, they do help my autism symptoms. Had my parents had access to genetic testing that indicated I would be autistic they may have aborted me, I don't know.

Teaching kids to speak is great; what I have a problem with is their method.
Must be a tough thought to have.

I think that half the problems can be taken away if we remove Asperger's from being considered a form of autism. You probably have more in common with the average joe than you do with Rain man.

I think ABA is complicated, this girl says the therapy helped her tremendously. If the ends justify the means it may be useful.


Since Aspergers have the same core traits as Autism I look at separating Aspergers from Autism as similar to separating Stage 1 lung cancer from Stage 2-4 lung cancer. If Aspergers is not Autism what is it? In the real world, I think that would mean the Aspie supremacists will have won. Cash-strapped governments, schools districts, and everyday people would see no need for supports, accommodations or understanding. Why would anybody want to tolerate never mind help people who would be viewed as refusing to use their smart brains to stop bieng "as*holes"?


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androbot01
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10 Apr 2017, 8:03 am

Shahunshah wrote:
I think that half the problems can be taken away if we remove Asperger's from being considered a form of autism.

Asperger syndrome is autism, just with a stupid name.

Shahunshah wrote:
You probably have more in common with the average joe than you do with Rain man.
[/quote]
It's risky to diagnose over the internet; not enough information and a huge risk of insulting someone.



kraftiekortie
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10 Apr 2017, 8:50 am

Rain Man would never be diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome.

The character seems most like an autistic savant. He can take care of his ADL's like toileting, dressing, etc, but he needs round-the-clock care for many reasons.

Rain Man was high-functioning under the pre-1994 criteria, but level 2-3 under DSM-V.



Shahunshah
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10 Apr 2017, 2:29 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I think that half the problems can be taken away if we remove Asperger's from being considered a form of autism.

Asperger syndrome is autism, just with a stupid name.

Shahunshah wrote:
You probably have more in common with the average joe than you do with Rain man.

It's risky to diagnose over the internet; not enough information and a huge risk of insulting someone.[/quote]

Maybe its good we acknowledge Hans Asperger. He was unique in comparison to most psychiatrists of the time, he took time to understand the people he was dealing with rather than dismiss them.

Sorry to offend. I speak from my experience of you. Here's what you yourself described, you live independently, you were married. None of that Rain Man could accomplish, but then again their may be a score of things I am ignoring.

If your okay talking about this, why would you say Asperger's is a form of autism?



TheRedPedant93
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10 Apr 2017, 3:44 pm

As a former ND activist (who is fervently proud of my autistic identity, yet has written about the problems of the neurodiversity movement on here for over 2 years), I have foreseen that an incident like this unequivocally akin to manufactroversy would occur and as I have pointed out in a precedented post, the black and white dichotomous contention between the neurodiversity movement/autism acceptance groups and pro-cure groups (both the evidence based groups, anti-vaccination groups & biomedical/alternative treatment groups) is one of the most tribalistic and dangerous Hegelian dialectical divide and conquer us vs them strategies in our morally and spiritually subordinate, anti-intellectualist, ideological collectivist world (Circumventing logical fallacies and getting along with each other in my opinion is a virtual impossibility).

It can be equivocated with the postmodern regressive left vs alt right (a term heavily propensified to the Argumentum ad Dictionarium fallacy on what it really constitutes) paradigm who view anything they disdain as being equated with the same policy, world-view or cultural/political aspect that is antithetical to their goals and socially constructed belief systems (Jonanism), and no subjective conjecture is necessitated for me to figure why I would never want to join any of the dogmatic subdivisions of the autism community. Aspie supremacists, neurodiversity activists (the SJW types of course who view anything classified as "right wing" lamentable - Argumentum ad Fastidium, or contend that aspies/high functioning autistics who are proud of their identity, yet believe that deleterious environmental intoxicants should be curtailed to attenuate unwanted cases of ASD that fluctuates it's true natural prevalence, and furthermore believes that moderately to severely autistic people should have their symptomatic profiles be alleviated by whatever government funded, lobbied and subsequently validated genetic and post-natal biomedical treatment with an underlying "miracle cure" component as "not real ASD rights activists," "undercover nazis/KKK" and force them to repudiate such middle-ground positions by claiming them be a slippery slope to autistic genocide, and that they should be renounced from taxation funding initiatives as it would exhort the government to enforce it on those clinically diagnosed without consent, even if that person does not support prenatal testing initiatives (possibly a slippery slope to autistic feticide) which I personally revolt - Appeal to Consequences, Argumentum Ad Baculum, False Dichotomy, No True Scotsman, Bait & Switch, Godwin's Law, False Equivocation), anti-vaxxers (e.g."these self proclaimed skeptics (I don't even like them) & neurodiversity activist groups are pharmacorporatocracy disinformation fronts to encourage mass vaccination and make everyone autistic zombies" - Shill Gambit, Appeal to Hate, Confirmation Bias) and anti-neurodiversity groups/individuals (e.g Individuals who make up wishful thinking juxtaposed with uncertainty tactic statements and hasty generalizations like "you're clearly self diagnosed and give autistics a bad name" (this emanates from the SJW ideology permeating autistic activism from social media esp Tumblr) or express red herrings & false dilemmas like "you can't clearly self advocate autistic people and be against Keynesian socialism, SJW-ism and second/third wave feminism simultaneously, you're committing the special pleading fallacy in order to undermine our self-conceptualized objectives and movement" - Argumentum ad Logicam, Appeal to motive, No true Scotsman, Tu-Quoque) on people proud of their autistic identity & groups such as Age of Autism and Generation Rescue who subscribe to the false dilemma of ASD of being predominantly caused by environmental virulences and being epigenetically factorial - Nirvana Fallacy) are of no exception. Rhetorical ad nauseam statements like this purported from subdivided groups or anything ascribed from your group identity that advocates any collectivist agenda serve no purpose for those impervious to group-think echo chambers and espouse freedom of thought and independent thinking.

I'm pretty sure that not all neurodiversity activists and autistics who entail value and pride in their identity are SJW's (Cultural Marxist), whether or not they rigorously adhere to identity first language, but it's certainly proportionately adulatory than in the general population and it's something that needs to addressed if they are going to procure some worth in society as a whole, which 99.999 percent of social movements should never get (they are divide and rule ism/ology potpourri). I have observed a great deal of autistic youtubers who took pride in their neurological identity have responded to Sargon of Akkad's questionable equivocation of ASD with second & third wave feminists and they were very much diametrically opposed to SJW's and feminists as a whole, so it turns they're are autistic rights advocates who are aware that the SJW and third wave feminist ideologies are detrimental to their cause and therefore repudiate mutually exclusive concepts and the false dichotomy of having to advocate autistic pride & embrace SJW-ism at the same time. Moromillas Radec & Hannah Riedel (although they oppose each other for some reason) are two of the best YT exemplifications of this.

There are people like Andrew Solomon and Manoj Kanagaraj who seek an underlying middle-ground by rebuffing the theoretical dichotomy between embracing the neurodivergences (the natural personality variances, cognitive gifts/liberties and perceptual discrepancies associated with Asperger's syndrome/High Functioning Autism, oh and not forgetting the genuine, cherry picked subgrouping of lower functioning, yet mentally & cognitive able autistics) and ameliorating the hindrances of the autistic spectrum (studying the underlying bio-markers responsible for causing the condition, nonverbal expressive deficiencies, intellectual disabilities, epilepsy, SIB's, neuro-inflammatory and physiological conditions and other malfeasances that has the potential to debilitate one's every day life and also for the parent treating it to longitudinally permeate the carer's mental and phenotypical well being in every day life).

Now if it's true that William Shatner is blocking autistic people then it illustrates his profound sensitivity to criticism, which is rather unprofessionally bothersome, and has nothing to do with his support of Autism Speaks. I take that Ari Ne'eman (not a fan his even though I don't support Shatner's snowflake sensitivity to criticism) and Shatner will be arch-enemies now considering that they have blocked each other.


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RAADS-R: 237/240
Aspie score: 199 out of 200
Neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 1 out of 200
Alexithymia Questionnaire: 166/185 AQ: 49/50 EQ: 9/80


Last edited by TheRedPedant93 on 10 Apr 2017, 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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10 Apr 2017, 4:09 pm

There is no doubt in my mind: Asperger's is a form of autism.

It is not part of the DSM-V, though it still exists under the ICD-10.

Even if the ICD-11 does away with Asperger's, it does not change my opinion that it is a form of autism.

If you read "Elijah's Cup," you'll see what I mean. Elijah was a person who had classically autistic symptoms as a very young child, then Aspergian symptoms later on. I actually met this person.

I have had a somewhat similar life to Elijah.



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10 Apr 2017, 4:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind: Asperger's is a form of autism.

It is not part of the DSM-V, though it still exists under the ICD-10.

Even if the ICD-11 does away with Asperger's, it does not change my opinion that it is a form of autism.

If you read "Elijah's Cup," you'll see what I mean. Elijah was a person who had classically autistic symptoms as a very young child, then Aspergian symptoms later on. I actually met this person.

I have had a somewhat similar life to Elijah.

I don't know Kraftie. Do you have epilepsy, crippling sensory issues, can you talk?

The thing is with having Asperger's that makes it so different from autism is that the life you live can be so different and the level of potential you have is greatly expanded.



kraftiekortie
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10 Apr 2017, 4:16 pm

I don't have Aspergers. I would never be diagnosed with Aspergers.

I was diagnosed with classic autism as a very young child. I had a severe speech delay (didn't talk till age 5 1/2). There is such thing as "high-functioning autism" without Aspergers. I am such a "case."

I feel like I have presented "Asperger's-like" since around the age of 7 or so, though.

People who have seizures, cannot talk, and don't initiate socially are usually diagnosed with "Level-3" autism these days. What would, today, be called "severe or level 3 autism," was, officially, the "only" autism until 1994. It was autism, primarily, as defined by Leo Kanner, who wrote and published a paper on these sorts of autistic children in 1943.

There was a notion of "high-functioning autism" with speech, and "higher functioning," during the 1980s. And Uta Frith and others started reading Hans Asperger's 1943 paper on children who exhibit the symptoms of the disorder which bears his name, were fascinated by this paper, saw some people who fit that "description," and started writing about Asperger's Syndrome.



ASPartOfMe
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11 Apr 2017, 2:10 am

Shahunshah wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind: Asperger's is a form of autism.

It is not part of the DSM-V, though it still exists under the ICD-10.

Even if the ICD-11 does away with Asperger's, it does not change my opinion that it is a form of autism.

If you read "Elijah's Cup," you'll see what I mean. Elijah was a person who had classically autistic symptoms as a very young child, then Aspergian symptoms later on. I actually met this person.

I have had a somewhat similar life to Elijah.

I don't know Kraftie. Do you have epilepsy, crippling sensory issues, can you talk?

The thing is with having Asperger's that makes it so different from autism is that the life you live can be so different and the level of potential you have is greatly expanded.


How the reality that the lives Aspies are quite different from severe level three autistics differ from the reality that people with a first degree burn on thier hand live a very different life then those with fourth degree burns over a large part of their body?

You do not have mild burn supremists trying to seperate themselves from the more severely burned nor those with severe burns saying people with mild burns do not have real burns. There is no wholly seperate diagnosis for burns, cancer and most conditions.

If people have the same core traits/ symptoms they are usually diagnosed with the same condition with subcatogories yet in autism a lot of people are offended by this concept.

The double standard works this way with identities also. When an Italian American calls himself Italian and goes to Knights of Columbus meetings or an Irish American calls herself Irish and marches in the St. Patrick's Day parade there is not any confusion about them bieng American, and they are rarely accused of playing identity politics or thinking they are above other Americans.

Why does Autism need to be so different in this regard?


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11 Apr 2017, 10:04 am

I don't care about Autism Speaks but ASAN and the whole 'ND' movement seem very unhelpful and self-serving.



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12 Apr 2017, 4:38 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There is no doubt in my mind: Asperger's is a form of autism.

It is not part of the DSM-V, though it still exists under the ICD-10.

Even if the ICD-11 does away with Asperger's, it does not change my opinion that it is a form of autism.

If you read "Elijah's Cup," you'll see what I mean. Elijah was a person who had classically autistic symptoms as a very young child, then Aspergian symptoms later on. I actually met this person.

I have had a somewhat similar life to Elijah.

I don't know Kraftie. Do you have epilepsy, crippling sensory issues, can you talk?

The thing is with having Asperger's that makes it so different from autism is that the life you live can be so different and the level of potential you have is greatly expanded.


How the reality that the lives Aspies are quite different from severe level three autistics differ from the reality that people with a first degree burn on thier hand live a very different life then those with fourth degree burns over a large part of their body?

You do not have mild burn supremists trying to seperate themselves from the more severely burned nor those with severe burns saying people with mild burns do not have real burns. There is no wholly seperate diagnosis for burns, cancer and most conditions.

If people have the same core traits/ symptoms they are usually diagnosed with the same condition with subcatogories yet in autism a lot of people are offended by this concept.

The double standard works this way with identities also. When an Italian American calls himself Italian and goes to Knights of Columbus meetings or an Irish American calls herself Irish and marches in the St. Patrick's Day parade there is not any confusion about them bieng American, and they are rarely accused of playing identity politics or thinking they are above other Americans.

Why does Autism need to be so different in this regard?
Well with High functioning Autism and Asperger's I feel I can live quite a good life. The world keeps saying I have a disability but it is simply not always that way. I am able live a good life, I have an intense interest in history and politics that keeps me doing. And I have a number of friends. Now let's look at someone else, they might have epilepsy, crippling sensory issues and be nonverbal and the result is clear they have a different life.

Most people with Autism aren't in my category and for that reason we shouldn't be placed under the same category. Our lives are so radically different that we are simply not alike.



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12 Apr 2017, 4:43 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Well with High functioning Autism and Asperger's I feel I can live quite a good life. The world keeps saying I have a disability but it is simply not always that way. I am able live a good life, I have an intense interest in history and politics that keeps me doing. And I have a number of friends. Now let's look at someone else, they might have epilepsy, crippling sensory issues and be nonverbal and the result is clear they have a different life.

Most people with Autism aren't in my category and for that reason we shouldn't be placed under the same category. Our lives are so radically different that we are simply not alike.

I don't understand the need to compare symptoms. Ultimately, each person's experience is unique.



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12 Apr 2017, 4:47 am

androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Well with High functioning Autism and Asperger's I feel I can live quite a good life. The world keeps saying I have a disability but it is simply not always that way. I am able live a good life, I have an intense interest in history and politics that keeps me doing. And I have a number of friends. Now let's look at someone else, they might have epilepsy, crippling sensory issues and be nonverbal and the result is clear they have a different life.

Most people with Autism aren't in my category and for that reason we shouldn't be placed under the same category. Our lives are so radically different that we are simply not alike.

I don't understand the need to compare symptoms. Ultimately, each person's experience is unique.
I don't want society to get the wrong understanding. If we classify Asperger's as Autism, then many people who know someone with Asperger's may think it is less bad than what it actually is, but that distorts the truth. The same the other way, people may hear of autism as this terrible disability and as a result when they hear someone has it even if their symptoms are mild, their association is going to be that the person has a severe disability.

Do you think you can relate to Rain Man?



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12 Apr 2017, 4:55 am

Shahunshah wrote:
I don't want society to get the wrong understanding. If we classify Asperger's as Autism, then many people who know someone with Asperger's may think it is less bad than what it actually is, but that distorts the truth. The same the other way, people may hear of autism as this terrible disability and as a result when they hear someone has it even if their symptoms are mild, their association is going to be that the person has a severe disability.

You're making a lot of assumptions about an imagined person. Not much point in that kind of speculation. Just take each person as you find them.

Shahunshah wrote:
Do you think you can relate to Rain Man?

God, I haven't seen that movie since it came out. When was that, the 80's? At the time I was not diagnosed, but even then there were aspects I remember relating to ... repetitive behaviour, lack of ToM, etc.



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12 Apr 2017, 5:03 am

androbot01 wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I don't want society to get the wrong understanding. If we classify Asperger's as Autism, then many people who know someone with Asperger's may think it is less bad than what it actually is, but that distorts the truth. The same the other way, people may hear of autism as this terrible disability and as a result when they hear someone has it even if their symptoms are mild, their association is going to be that the person has a severe disability.

You're making a lot of assumptions about an imagined person. Not much point in that kind of speculation. Just take each person as you find them.

Shahunshah wrote:
Do you think you can relate to Rain Man?

God, I haven't seen that movie since it came out. When was that, the 80's? At the time I was not diagnosed, but even then there were aspects I remember relating to ... repetitive behaviour, lack of ToM, etc.
I am not making assumptions about people. I am using what I know about Asperger's as a diagnosis compared to what I know about Low functioning autism. All I have said about Asperger's is not assumptions it is backed up with diagnoses and research. And for that reason are we like Rain Man?

I think not, but you may disagree. I would like to hear why. I am not denying we have struggles, I most certainly think you have had many and that it must take allot of strength to deal with yours. But here is why I don't think we have a disability. If you had been raised in say a different time that accepted you would find yourself not necessarily disabled, if on the other hand a low functioning autistic person was in that same situation they would face immense struggles.

I wouldn't call you bad at ToM. I often like to talk to you about relatively personal stuff. I wouldn't if that is what I thought.



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12 Apr 2017, 5:40 am

Shahunshah wrote:
I am not making assumptions about people. I am using what I know about Asperger's as a diagnosis compared to what I know about Low functioning autism. All I have said about Asperger's is not assumptions it is backed up with diagnoses and research.

I should have said assumption. Mainly, of the responses of the fictitious people. You can't know what people individually think of autism.

Shahunshah wrote:
But here is why I don't think we have a disability. If you had been raised in say a different time that accepted you would find yourself not necessarily disabled, if on the other hand a low functioning autistic person was in that same situation they would face immense struggles.


Rainman was one person's vision of autism, very well portrayed by Dustin Hoffman, but it is just that. Rainman is a character. Sheldon Cooper is probably a more modern take.

I don't know about you, but I am disabled. I'm not going to go into the many and various ways, but I am definitely an inferior specimen.

Shahunshah wrote:
I wouldn't call you bad at ToM. I often like to talk to you about relatively personal stuff. I wouldn't if that is what I thought.

I don't think ToM is caring about other people; I think it is awareness of the experience of others. Being aware of what other people are going through in the moment. Often, I think, autistic people take a while to become aware of the experience of others and often miss the moment. Doesn't mean we don't care, just means we weren't aware. Unfortunately we too often miss the opportunity to act in the moment, which leads to letting people down.