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marshall
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05 Apr 2017, 12:50 pm

You know the theory that depression is caused by "irrational negative thoughts". I don't see how CBT is supposed to help anyone who isn't suggestible enough to automatically accept this ludicrous theory.

I can't criticize CBT as a whole as I believe there are parts of it that are effective. I just think the part on "correcting distorted thoughts" is not helpful at all. It doesn't help people like me who usually can't identify any particular "thought distortions" causing them to feel depressed. I can simply be playing a video game and after a while I start not finding it fun anymore... then I notice nothing is fun anymore... then I feel like I don't have the energy to do anything... then I start feeling a weight descending all over me and a deep pit of doom growing in my chest. There is absolutely no particular negative thought I can identify. Probably the biggest negative thought is the fear over how long it is going to last. If there are "distorted negative thoughts" involved at the beginning, they must be subconscious, and therefore not directly accessible for "correction".

I also feel like the idea that depression is all about "distorted thoughts" leads to a feeling of being dismissed. It is as though the "therapist" (who has never truly experienced anything close to what you have) is dismissing you as being "insane" for feeling depressed. Instead of someone who is suffering, you are treated as someone who has to be "corrected". I know this is not what they actually believe, but that's what the "theory" often comes off as. It is grossly simplistic at the minimum, if not just flat out wrong.

Another issue I have is the failure to accept that sometimes life really does suck... even for those who don't have clinical depression. I notice the tendency to diagnose everyone who struggles and faces despondency with depression, as if it is a disease to react negatively to demoralizing circumstances created by the societies in which we live in.



Noca
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05 Apr 2017, 1:31 pm

I find CBT only effective for anxiety because I know anxious thoughts are irrational and illogical. I have plenty legitimate, logical and rational reasons to be depressed.



crystaltermination
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06 Apr 2017, 9:21 am

I can accept that CBT is potentially useful to people with a broad variety of mental health problems, but wanes in usefulness with increasing severity of the illness in a person. I've had a counselor in the past talk of the need to 're-configure negative neural pathways to positive ones': well it sounds good on paper.
I couldn't help but compare the CBT I've experienced as some kind of 8-week crash course in how one might better mentally batter negative thought-patterns into submission, but that sounds suspiciously reminiscent of the 'mind over matter' idea. Basically, we can all learn to think ourselves through this, (in 8 weeks? - don't make me laugh!)
CBT just isn't enough. It can be a good start in the right direction, but not a cure. Depression can't be treated in a half-arsed fashion, you need meds and therapy to squash it back to manageable levels.


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marshall
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06 Apr 2017, 11:06 am

crystaltermination wrote:
I can accept that CBT is potentially useful to people with a broad variety of mental health problems, but wanes in usefulness with increasing severity of the illness in a person. I've had a counselor in the past talk of the need to 're-configure negative neural pathways to positive ones': well it sounds good on paper.
I couldn't help but compare the CBT I've experienced as some kind of 8-week crash course in how one might better mentally batter negative thought-patterns into submission, but that sounds suspiciously reminiscent of the 'mind over matter' idea. Basically, we can all learn to think ourselves through this, (in 8 weeks? - don't make me laugh!)
CBT just isn't enough. It can be a good start in the right direction, but not a cure. Depression can't be treated in a half-arsed fashion, you need meds and therapy to squash it back to manageable levels.

My biggest problem with CBT is the idea that depression is "caused" by negative thought distortions, rather than it being the other way around. It gets the causality completely backwards. It also doesn't address the symptoms of anhedonia or free-floating dysphoria that are not associated with any conscious thought or belief. It just seems blatantly obvious that whoever came up with the idea never experienced actual clinical depression. If they did they would know their theory is full of s**t.



HelloWorld314
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06 Apr 2017, 11:15 am

My current psychologist is doing CBT with me, so I will see how that goes. But I think depression is caused by many things, maybe for some it is irrational thoughts, but for others it may be chemical imbalance or just way too much stresses than what they can handle. So I guess CBT can help some people with depression but not others depending on the cause.

On that note, my psychologist claims I have negative distortions, yet I don't think most of what she thinks are distortions are distortions, they are literally negative facts about my current situation. Yes they are depressing but they need to be dealt with instead of pretending they are just negative thoughts that should be avoided.


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Last edited by HelloWorld314 on 06 Apr 2017, 11:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

marshall
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06 Apr 2017, 11:15 am

Noca wrote:
I find CBT only effective for anxiety because I know anxious thoughts are irrational and illogical. I have plenty legitimate, logical and rational reasons to be depressed.

The problem is not all anxiety is caused by a thought process. Most people on the autism spectrum experience anxiety related to sensory sensitivities. The anxiety reaction to harsh sounds is almost as automatic as the normal person's pain reaction to being pricked with a needle.

If irrational thoughts exist, then it might be helpful to use CBT to correct them. However, I think many cases emotions are not fully connected with conscious thoughts. The claim that ALL emotions arise from conscious thoughts or beliefs is pretty absurd.



crystaltermination
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06 Apr 2017, 11:16 am

marshall wrote:
My biggest problem with CBT is the idea that depression is "caused" by negative thought distortions, rather than it being the other way around. It gets the causality completely backwards. It also doesn't address the symptoms of anhedonia or free-floating dysphoria that are not associated with any conscious thought or belief. It just seems blatantly obvious that whoever came up with the idea never experienced actual clinical depression. If they did they would know their theory is full of s**t.

Agreed. It's a mammoth disease caused by myriad factors, not just negative thoughts. Regarding one of these variables, i.e. having a genetic predisposition towards developing depression, it throws into light how ridiculous CBT as a cure sounds. It would be great if we all could think our genes into a more depression-free state, but nope. :roll:


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kitesandtrainsandcats
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06 Apr 2017, 11:18 am

After hearing their use of CBT acronym from a kinkster acquaintance I can't get that out of my head when I see CBT. That totally ruined me for life.


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MentalIllnessObsessed
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07 Apr 2017, 8:10 pm

I did CBT for 2 years, but my psychiatrist dropped me because I didn't find it helpful. I can't understand how positive thinking is going to change how I am. And yes, I did CBT for anxiety. I also don't see how changing my thinking is going to make my thoughts feel less dumb or stupid. I already know my thoughts are irrational. I tell myself my thoughts are irrational but my mind doesn't care. It still thinks like this.

I now suffer from depression and I still don't see how positive thinking is going to make things better. I'm too depressed to get school work done and my marks are dropping significantly. I'm so far behind. All my school has told me to get extensions so then I get further behind because I'm playing catch up.

Sorry, a bit of a rant up there. I don't see how CBT will help with depression.


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Sweetleaf
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07 Apr 2017, 8:22 pm

CBT therapy wasn't really any good for me, due to failure with that I got pretty convinced no therapy would help. But then I saw a trauma therapist since some of my issues are related to some trauma related issues and that ended up helping so much so I haven't been back to therapy since I made progress with that therapist. The thing was I was kind of using one traumatic event to sort of cover up an older one that I had never properly addressed, so then the stress of both were just causing me a lot of misery.

So yeah for me it was trauma therapy that helped...since then I seem to be doing ok working on my anxiety and depression on my own, just kind of keeping track of how I feel and if I start feeling bad use my coping skills and such. To me CBT always seemed kind of insulting in a way like they're telling you 'well just don't think that or feel that' like you can just at will not feel something...and to me that was certainly way more frustrating than helpful.

Trauma therapy was the opposite...let it all out, feel everything and sort of get to the bottom of it and then be able to work towards moving on.


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28 Apr 2017, 4:47 pm

No, I do not agree with the CBT theory. I agree with these posts:

marshall wrote:
I notice the tendency to diagnose everyone who struggles and faces despondency with depression, as if it is a disease to react negatively to demoralizing circumstances created by the societies in which we live in.

HelloWorld314 wrote:
On that note, my psychologist claims I have negative distortions, yet I don't think most of what she thinks are distortions are distortions, they are literally negative facts about my current situation. Yes they are depressing but they need to be dealt with instead of pretending they are just negative thoughts that should be avoided.

marshall wrote:
Most people on the autism spectrum experience anxiety related to sensory sensitivities. The anxiety reaction to harsh sounds is almost as automatic as the normal person's pain reaction to being pricked with a needle.


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MindBlind
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06 May 2017, 5:59 pm

Noca wrote:
I find CBT only effective for anxiety because I know anxious thoughts are irrational and illogical. I have plenty legitimate, logical and rational reasons to be depressed.


That and depression isn't caused by negative thoughts (neither is anxiety). Depression has genetic, epigenetic and environmental factors that are very complicated and we still don't fully understand the role these factors play in it. Negative thought patterns are more of a feedback loop that reinforces depressive symptoms but (particularly in the case of clinical depression) CBT is very limited in treating depression on its own. This is why a lot of people don't improve until they are on an antidepressant. For milder and atypical forms of depression, CBT might be just as effective as antidepressants but many people need both to reach full remission.



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07 May 2017, 12:24 pm

I believe CBT would help me if used correctly. I am aware that I feel much better when I am thinking positively and my symptoms get much worse when I focus on the difficulties.

But my psychologist is doing something wrong.
Instead of telling me positive stuff I should be thinking she keeps asking me what my problems are and when we talk she will tell me hurting stuff such as "You don't set yourself any goals"(What the hell is the want to move to a big city and find a job there if not a goal? ), "You want to work underground with noone around"(not true at all, my ideal work would be a calm office or workshop with 1-3 coworkers), "Big city is even worse"(I don't think so), "You will loose motivation if you get disability benefits"(I think some money will help me feel safer and motivate me to moving out and living on my own and I might also start going to some trips and meting new people), "There is no job where you don't have to deal with phones"(Seriously? What kind of generalization is that?).
She never told me anything positive about myself and when I tell her "Don't criticize me." she tells me it's her job because I am apparently "Not aware of what I am doing wrong". Seriously? What is that supposed to be? Reverse CBT? I am very aware of what I am doing wrong - I just don't know how to fix it nor how to get it across to her. I always feel like s**t after the "therapy" and last time I was even thinking about committing suicide because she told me I am "not trying hard enough".



fakkau89
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21 May 2017, 4:19 am

marshall wrote:
...It doesn't help people like me who usually can't identify any particular "thought distortions" causing them to feel depressed. I can simply be playing a video game and after a while I start not finding it fun anymore... then I notice nothing is fun anymore... then I feel like I don't have the energy to do anything... then I start feeling a weight descending all over me and a deep pit of doom growing in my chest. There is absolutely no particular negative thought I can identify. Probably the biggest negative thought is the fear over how long it is going to last. If there are "distorted negative thoughts" involved at the beginning, they must be subconscious, and therefore not directly accessible for "correction"....
.


I could be unconscious thoughts, maybe you have anxiety and a bit of depression from your past loosely or tightly connected to playing games, maybe the sensory input is overloading you too (that could be it)

BTW what is CBT exactly? My psyche does it but I haven't been told properly what it is and how it works.



Chester
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22 May 2017, 10:31 am

Thankfully there are lots of different therapeutic approaches out there so if the language of CBT isn't working for you, hopefully there is something else out there that you can relate to.

I am in therapy right now and my therapist (like a lot of therapists) is trained in a variety of approaches. We were talking about CBT at one point and he said that he thinks CBT language can sound a little "judgey" because of the focus on "wrong" thinking patterns and such. He says when he uses it he tends to reframe it as "helpful/unhelpful thinking patterns" I think sometimes it takes awhile to find the right fit with a therapist who understands you



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25 May 2017, 1:44 pm

I have always found my thoughts to be rational. If something happens, I have a good reason to be worried. If I have had experience about something, I have a good reason to be worried. I am also aware of myself so I know what my triggers are so I think it's pretty rational too. I have no idea of I have ever had CBT. But it pisses me off when my mom says I am having anxiety about having anxiety. No I am not. I know what stresses me out I know what i find overwhelming so I will do anything I can to avoid that from happening. Saying I am having anxiety about having anxiety makes it sound like mine is irrational and totally missing the point about my problems. It's like saying a person with autism is having anxiety about having anxiety when in fact they are thinking about their sensory triggers and trying to avoid having a sensory overload so they always have to know what to expect in the room or how many people will be there and be prepared for it. That is basically what my mom is doing. Totally missing the point so it's like she doesn't always understand me. Heck if someone kept poking me with a needle, I would be too anxious to be around that person or even be near them so for my mom to say "you are having anxiety about having anxiety" is BS and totally glossing over the fact someone keeps poking me with a needle and how that feels uncomfortable and painful.


@Kiriae, I would fire the therapist and fine another one. Sounds like she doesn't listen and how do therapists like that even keep their job?


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