Can we divide faith and state

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jrjones9933
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14 Apr 2017, 3:02 pm

leejosepho wrote:

jrjones9933 wrote:

Pretty sure we have a right to complain about whatever. Some even seem to consider complaining about any progress toward equality as a kind of obligation.

Yes, and that is why I had edited my post while you were posting!

Crossed inter tubes. :lol:

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leejosepho
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14 Apr 2017, 3:10 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

There is no religious law like the Sharia, or even mention of an "established church" (Church of England). So we have de jure separation of church and state...

De facto, however, religion, especially the Christian religion, carries great weight in this country...

Many of the Founding Fathers...[embraced]...more abstract idea than concrete reality.

Understood and agreed, and my edits there are only about trying to help others not be distracted by commentary whether accurate, inaccurate, past or present. Whatever their personal beliefs might have been, and even though Jefferson, I think, was at least one who clearly declared his hatred of Christianity, those men did their very best to assure no sectarian religion could ever be imposed or forced upon anyone.

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jrjones9933
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14 Apr 2017, 3:33 pm

I support TST. Wherever the Dominionists put up the ten commandments, they sue to put up a Baphomet.

Edit: On government property, I mean.

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15 Apr 2017, 1:57 am

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

“There are some politicians for whom faith has shaped politics, and others for whom you can be more confident that politics are shaping faith.” --Nick Spencer

Thank you. That explanation makes sense to me. It's just one of those things I haven't really thought about, but when I started thinking about it I realised how things really work isn't quite how I had it in my mind.

My personal view is that ideally a member of parliament should represent those in their constituency which will include people from all sorts of backgrounds. So when considering a change of law (I'm trying not to be specific because I don't want to start a debate about a specific law) then the mps should consider what the constituents want and regard how that will effect the economy and the environment and people's living conditions and well being (both mental and physical). It shouldn't be about what the politician wants, it should be about what is best for the people and the country at large.

That's a dream though isn't it

leejosepho
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15 Apr 2017, 7:24 am

hurtloam wrote:

My personal view is that ideally a member of parliament should represent those in their constituency...consider what the constituents want...

Yes, and all of that so far is rather objective and concrete until...

hurtloam wrote:

...and regard how that will effect the economy and the environment and people's living conditions and well being (both mental and physical).

There is where things switch from "Do what the people want" to "Do what the people want as long as...(whatever)." And here in the states, I believe it is more like "We (government) do whatever we want while trying to keep people sufficiently appeased so we (government) can keep doing whatever we want."

hurtloam wrote:

It shouldn't be about what the politician wants, it should be about what is best for the people and the country at large.

Yes, at least in theory, and I say that while wondering who should actually be deciding "what is best for the people and the country at large."

hurtloam wrote:

That's a dream though isn't it

Yes, and I say that because I am convinced mankind will never be able to rule itself rightly.

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naturalplastic
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18 Apr 2017, 10:37 am

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

“There are some politicians for whom faith has shaped politics, and others for whom you can be more confident that politics are shaping faith.” --Nick Spencer

Some leaders might never actually mention their personal beliefs or religious preferences or practices, but all leaders in some way affect the personal beliefs, preferences or practices of other people whether or not any of those beliefs, preferences or practices can be tied directly back to the leaders "faith" or religion...and it would be impossible for all leaders to do whatever they do without ever at least *revealing* their personal beliefs or religious preferences or practices. So, the so-called "separation of church and state" simply means the state should not ever *impose* beliefs, preferences or practices that could *only* be tied back to (or were being put into place because of) a given "faith" or religion.

9-11 blows all of that wide open, however, since it began "the world's fight...civilization's fight...the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom." --GWB, 20 Sep 2001

The argument there is this: "Increasing religious pluralism in society is a major factor in causing societies to move toward greater religious freedom.", but leaders cannot force the abandonment or removal of monotheism without crossing the "separation of church and state" line.

What the heck are you talking about?

The US government is out to stamp out monotheism?

Since when?

What does the phrase "trying to stamp out monothesim" even mean?

Are you saying that the U.S. government sends out missionaries to convert folks to polytheism (ie is trying to revive the worship of the Pagan polytheistic gods of Mount Olympus?).

When did the US government start doing THAT?

And how does that work?

Some well dressed folks walk down your street, and knock on your door, and ask you to let them in so they can share the good news with you about Zeus, Apollo, and Dionysus?

Or maybe they sing this:

https://youtu.be/YBtSFhbxBTg

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18 Apr 2017, 11:02 am

naturalplastic wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

“There are some politicians for whom faith has shaped politics, and others for whom you can be more confident that politics are shaping faith.” --Nick Spencer

What the heck are you talking about?

9-11: "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make: Either you are with us* [who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom], or you are with the terrorists [known to be monotheistic]." --GWB, 20 Sep 2001

*If that is not about global governance imposing religion, then why the mention of pluralism?

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naturalplastic
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18 Apr 2017, 1:24 pm

leejosepho wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

leejosepho wrote:

Quote:

“There are some politicians for whom faith has shaped politics, and others for whom you can be more confident that politics are shaping faith.” --Nick Spencer

What the heck are you talking about?

What does W's statement have to do with "global governance imposing religion"?

leejosepho
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18 Apr 2017, 1:53 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

What does [GWB's] statement have to do with "global governance imposing religion"?

""Every nation, in every region" covers the globe, and the so-called "War On Terror" proposes to end terrorism by imposing pluralism...and pluralism does not tolerate monotheism. None of that is required for prosecuting criminals such as the Twin-Tower pilots, of course, but such is the globalists' religious agenda.

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naturalplastic
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18 Apr 2017, 1:57 pm

leejosepho wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

What does [GWB's] statement have to do with "global governance imposing religion"?

What does believing in "pluralism" have to do with "not tolerateing monothesim"?

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20 Apr 2017, 8:11 am

I have not been on this site for quite a while but I see Lee is still spewing forth nonsense. What the heck are you on about Lee. GW is a rabid monotheist, you do realise that Allah, Yahweh and God are all the same deity its not like we are talking about Zeus, Poseidon and The Great Arkleseizure (actually perhaps the Great Arkleseizure is the same deity as God Yahweh and Allah. He is the creator of the universe after all).

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leejosepho
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20 Apr 2017, 11:04 am

DentArthurDent wrote:

I have not been on this site for quite a while but I see Lee is still spewing forth nonsense.

Great to see you again also, old fellow!

DentArthurDent wrote:

What the heck are you on about Lee. GW is a rabid monotheist...

Then why did he say every nation in every region is either with the pluralists or with the terrorists...and after having also just crossed the "separation of church and state" line by making theological commentary related to whether or not the terrorists are even good monotheists?

DentArthurDent wrote:

you do realise that Allah, Yahweh and God are all the same deity

Yes, certainly.

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naturalplastic
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20 Apr 2017, 2:11 pm

leejosepho wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

What the heck are you on about Lee. GW is a rabid monotheist...

Then why did he say every nation in every region is either with the pluralists or with the terrorists...and after .

Ive asked you this fifty times in this one thread, and you steadfastly refused to answer it each and every time.

So once again please explain how "being for pluralism and against terrorism" is the same thing as being "against monotheism".

Second- what would you WANT GW to say? Do you want him to have endorsed terrorism?

leejosepho
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20 Apr 2017, 2:37 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Ive asked you this fifty times in this one thread, and you steadfastly refused to answer it each and every time.

No, never even once.

naturalplastic wrote:

...please explain how "being for pluralism and against terrorism" is the same thing as being "against monotheism".

I cannot find the expression "against monotheism" anywhere in this thread, but the logic that could lead to that kind of conclusion is actually quite simple:

"Either you are with us [pluralists] or you are with the terrorists"...and that essentially makes me a terrorist in the eyes of pluralists since I happen to be monotheistic rather than pluralistic.

naturalplastic wrote:

Second- what would you WANT GW to say? Do you want him to have endorsed terrorism?

Of course not, just leave religion out of it entirely -- there was a *lot* of that in that speech -- and go after criminals such as the Twin-Tower pilots without saying anything at all about their religion or religions...and also please keep in mind that this thread is about whether or not "faith and state" can actually be divided-and-separate. Personally, I believe that is not possible. Either way, however, the globalists do not even try.

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kraftiekortie
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20 Apr 2017, 2:53 pm

Pluralism has nothing to do with religion, or the amount of gods people worship.

It has to do with respect for cultures other than one's own.

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20 Apr 2017, 3:55 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Pluralism has nothing to do with religion, or the amount of gods people worship.

It has to do with respect for cultures other than one's own.

Thank you. I wondered what the conversation had turned to here.

Slips quietly back away from the PPR section...

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