Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Is gender a binary or a spectrum?

Page 8 of 9 [ 141 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Gromit
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,302
Location: In Cognito

18 May 2017, 10:15 am

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:
Gromit wrote:
Is it a fair summary of your position that gender must be based on sex, sex is binary, and therefore gender must be binary?

Yes. Gender is the expression of biological sex or the characteristics commonly associated with the biological sexes.

Gender must be rooted in the concept of biological sex or it could be anything. You can't have the gender of a basketball. That would be lunatic.

And you say there are objective facts. My profile says I am male. If we met, on what objective facts would you rely to decide whether you agree? Assume I give you access to relevant medical records and that I am willing to undergo tests. What would you want to know?



friedmacguffins
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,539

18 May 2017, 10:48 am

Quote:
Autism is psychological. There are standard for a diagnosis. Sure, anyone can CLAIM they have autism, but that doesn't make it true.

There are no objective measurements for autism or a personal taste.

But, we know what are:
chromosomes
primary and secondary, sexual traits
universal norms, regarding gendered mannerisms.



BaronHarkonnen85
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 297
Location: Tennessee

18 May 2017, 11:40 am

Gromit wrote:
BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:
Gromit wrote:
Is it a fair summary of your position that gender must be based on sex, sex is binary, and therefore gender must be binary?

Yes. Gender is the expression of biological sex or the characteristics commonly associated with the biological sexes.

Gender must be rooted in the concept of biological sex or it could be anything. You can't have the gender of a basketball. That would be lunatic.

And you say there are objective facts. My profile says I am male. If we met, on what objective facts would you rely to decide whether you agree? Assume I give you access to relevant medical records and that I am willing to undergo tests. What would you want to know?


Gender identity may be the opposite of your biological sex, but opposite is the keyword.


_________________
--Baron Vladimir Harkonnen
The "Enlightenment" was the work of Satan


BaronHarkonnen85
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 297
Location: Tennessee

18 May 2017, 11:44 am

adifferentname wrote:
friedmacguffins wrote:
What are the biological markers for autism and for homosexuality? I mean, if you were to name specific ones.

I see lots of different case histories, and people are collating them, under a certain header.


Autism markers https://gene.sfari.org/autdb/CNVHome.do

Multi-faceted research points to autism being caused by genetic mutation, including numerous studies into heritability.

I'm sceptical of the existence of a "homosexual gene". Epigenetics likely plays its part, along with (obviously) postpartum environmental factors.

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:
Autism is a psychological disorder.


Autism is a neurological disorder which presents as a varied selection of psychological symptoms, but the root cause appears to be physical, not behavioural. Labelling it a "psychological disorder" simply is not accurate.


Psychology - the scientific study of the human mind and its functions, especially those affecting behavior in a given context.


_________________
--Baron Vladimir Harkonnen
The "Enlightenment" was the work of Satan


XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

18 May 2017, 5:03 pm

adifferentname wrote:
friedmacguffins wrote:
What are the biological markers for autism and for homosexuality? I mean, if you were to name specific ones.

I see lots of different case histories, and people are collating them, under a certain header.


Autism markers https://gene.sfari.org/autdb/CNVHome.do

Multi-faceted research points to autism being caused by genetic mutation, including numerous studies into heritability.

I'm sceptical of the existence of a "homosexual gene". Epigenetics likely plays its part, along with (obviously) postpartum environmental factors.

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:
Autism is a psychological disorder.


Autism is a neurological disorder which presents as a varied selection of psychological symptoms, but the root cause appears to be physical, not behavioural. Labelling it a "psychological disorder" simply is not accurate.


I know there is research that indicates autism has biological roots, but I'm bringing it up because I've heard the same arguments against non-binary people here being used against autistic people.

Personally, I never went through genetics testing to determine my autism, and I'm guessing most other people haven't either. It's based on subjective interpretations of how an individual thinks, feels, and behave (kind of like gender).

BTW, I've come to respect your viewpoint regarding gender quite a bit, so please don't take anything I say as an attack.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

18 May 2017, 5:10 pm

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

No. Autism is a psychological disorder. It's definition isn't rooted in the biological process of sexual reproduction. Humans, like all primates, are bisexual, meaning they have two sexes. The vast majority of the animal kingdom is bisexual.

Prior to the 1970s, the gender was a purely linguistic term. It had nothing to do biological sex or any kind of personal identity.

Gender has since turned into some kind of personal identity based in the biological sexes. Those are male and female. The reason for the two sexes is reproduction, which is a biological process.

Autism is psychological. There are standard for a diagnosis. Sure, anyone can CLAIM they have autism, but that doesn't make it true.

I'm sorry, but reality is not a social construct and neither is gender. There are objective facts.


If gender and sex were exactly the same thing, then we wouldn't have two separate concepts regarding such. Sorry, but there are aspects of "gender" that have nothing to do with biology, and you still have yet to declare what gender a person with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is supposed to have.

As for autism, the diagnosis process is purely based on how an individual thinks, feels, and behaves, as interpreted by a doctor. Which is not much different than "gender."

BTW, thank you for being polite and respectful in your exchanges on the subject thus far. Too many people take discussions of gender personally and fall back on snide remarks.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


synthpop
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

Joined: 18 Feb 2017
Age: 24
Gender: Female
Posts: 41

18 May 2017, 5:14 pm

a distinction between gender and sex must be made. sex is rigid and determined by either genitalia or chromosomes, but even chromosomes can deviate from a standard "binary" and result in intersex individuals and whatnot. gender is abstract. it is intangible. male, female, genderqueer, agender, whatever--i don't think it actually matters. it just doesn't matter. i'm not saying that the coining of new gender terms is 'invalid,' or the result of a mental illness. it's completely 'valid,' but i think it just doesn't matter and these terms are ultimately meaningless and counterproductive.
labelling genders seems to merely reinforce what people who claim to be against the gender binary hate. people say, "screw gender!" then go on to label themselves with a myriad of pointless gender terms, only serving to create more labels to attempt to 'fit' into. there will be no gender label anyone will 100% align with unless a continuous flow of terms are being created every moment, so why not just exist? why not just stop caring about gender terms? you don't have to have a label to convey everything about your personality and the way you act. just act as you wish. that's enough. you do not need a new label to describe how you feel in relation to gender.
gender is a spectrum and it is abstract, but i don't see a point in labelling every single possible point on this spectrum. there's no need to have a term for everything one feels in relation to gender.
i think the best approach to gender with a nihilistic lens--"gender nihilism. " exist. express yourself without fixating on terminology.
personally, i feel 'genderless,' but i have no issue being referred to as female because that is my biological sex and i don't assume any commonly perceived connotations of the term 'female.' being called female doesn't mean i'm being assumed to be 'girly,' dress-loving and makeup-wearing. it doesn't mean anything other than the fact that i have two X-chromosomes in the context of sex.


_________________
crisscrossed with axes and thresholds, with latitudes and longitudes and geodesic lines, traversed by gradients marking the transitions and the becomings.


QuillAlba
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Jul 2015
Age: 48
Posts: 2,739
Location: Scotland

18 May 2017, 5:17 pm

Everyone posting on this thread and reading it started as a sexless embryo.

Chromosomes then dictate if you are a male or female human.

It can get weird after that, maybe best to say it is a binary system than can become a spectrum due to things that happen on the way, or mutation to put it bluntly.

Evolution is mutation, for good or bad.



BaronHarkonnen85
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2016
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 297
Location: Tennessee

18 May 2017, 6:14 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:

No. Autism is a psychological disorder. It's definition isn't rooted in the biological process of sexual reproduction. Humans, like all primates, are bisexual, meaning they have two sexes. The vast majority of the animal kingdom is bisexual.

Prior to the 1970s, the gender was a purely linguistic term. It had nothing to do biological sex or any kind of personal identity.

Gender has since turned into some kind of personal identity based in the biological sexes. Those are male and female. The reason for the two sexes is reproduction, which is a biological process.

Autism is psychological. There are standard for a diagnosis. Sure, anyone can CLAIM they have autism, but that doesn't make it true.

I'm sorry, but reality is not a social construct and neither is gender. There are objective facts.


If gender and sex were exactly the same thing, then we wouldn't have two separate concepts regarding such. Sorry, but there are aspects of "gender" that have nothing to do with biology, and you still have yet to declare what gender a person with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome is supposed to have.

As for autism, the diagnosis process is purely based on how an individual thinks, feels, and behaves, as interpreted by a doctor. Which is not much different than "gender."

BTW, thank you for being polite and respectful in your exchanges on the subject thus far. Too many people take discussions of gender personally and fall back on snide remarks.


I don't think gender and sex are the same thing. My definition of gender, or a definition I believe is appropriate, is the expression of biological sex or the characteristics commonly associated with biological sex.

My point is that the purpose of identity is to identify - to classify - to differentiate between things. If the definition of gender isn't rooted in biology, then it isn't very good as an identity because the identity could be anything one wants.

I do acknowledge binary trans people as valid identities, ie a person whose gender identity is opposite to their biological sex. But the keyword there is opposite.


_________________
--Baron Vladimir Harkonnen
The "Enlightenment" was the work of Satan


Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

18 May 2017, 9:33 pm

How can it be a spectrum? There is male, female, and... what else? Nothing.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

18 May 2017, 9:42 pm

How can autism be a spectrum? There is autistic, not autistic, and... what else? Nothing.

Because we all know that each of us here is exactly as autistic as each other. And those who aren't autistic have NO autistic traits whatsoever. Yes, the world is entirely constructed of binaries. It's soothing to not have to consider nuance, shades. Nope, just a regular black and white world we've got.



Gromit
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,302
Location: In Cognito

19 May 2017, 9:03 am

BaronHarkonnen85 wrote:
Gromit wrote:
And you say there are objective facts. My profile says I am male. If we met, on what objective facts would you rely to decide whether you agree? Assume I give you access to relevant medical records and that I am willing to undergo tests. What would you want to know?

Gender identity may be the opposite of your biological sex, but opposite is the keyword.

I don't understand how that is relevant to my question. Starting with broad categories, which of the following would you want to know?
1) genotype
2) phenotype
3) both
4) neither is relevant to what you see as objective facts, you want to know something else



friedmacguffins
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,539

19 May 2017, 3:06 pm

Does he mean to say contrarian?



Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

19 May 2017, 9:50 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
How can autism be a spectrum? There is autistic, not autistic, and... what else? Nothing.


Exactly. It isn't a 'spectrum'. You either have the condition or you don't. A person doesn't have autism if they just tend to take people literally and really enjoy routine, but are also good at picking up 'body language', enjoy gossiping, and are otherwise like an N.T.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 22 Jan 2017
Age: 44
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,857

19 May 2017, 11:07 pm

Lintar wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
How can autism be a spectrum? There is autistic, not autistic, and... what else? Nothing.


Exactly. It isn't a 'spectrum'. You either have the condition or you don't. A person doesn't have autism if they just tend to take people literally and really enjoy routine, but are also good at picking up 'body language', enjoy gossiping, and are otherwise like an N.T.


Image



Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,777
Location: Victoria, Australia

20 May 2017, 2:07 am

That was my point: there's no spectrum.