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Bluebird04
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26 May 2017, 12:59 am

I agree. I don't think mimicking and imitation or masking and camouflaging are unique to ASD or ASD women. Perhaps, the problem is that NT's using mimicking and imitation as way to learn social skills and are able to do this fairly easily. Then, once comfortable they stop mimicking and imitation. But people with ASD don't learn social skills easily as NTs through mimicking and imitation. So whilst some ASD women can appear socially adept through mimicking and imitation they still have the underlying skills difficulties. And the mimicking and imitation hides the underlying difficulties so these are in turn not identified or catered for. Its a real catch 22. Not to mention the effort associated with constant imitation.



ammeavid
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30 May 2017, 7:14 am

I personally find that I mask nearly all the time due to a need to socialize out of a fear of becoming permanently socially ostracized. I honestly wished I had more support and was given more understanding of my AS as I now find it hard to be "myself" and am constantly trying my hardest to impress others.



esoterica181
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30 May 2017, 10:28 am

ammeavid wrote:
I honestly wished I had more support...


Yes. I think it would help me feel like it's possible to be accepted for who I am.



ammeavid
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30 May 2017, 10:51 am

esoterica181 wrote:
ammeavid wrote:
I honestly wished I had more support...


Yes. I think it would help me feel like it's possible to be accepted for who I am.

I feel that parents definitely need to make an effort to make their children aware of their AS and the symptoms that come with it, as well as connecting the child with others like them. My parents never did this for me, making me feel an extreme need for acceptance, therefore causing me to mask to the point of losing myself.



esoterica181
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30 May 2017, 11:09 am

[/quote]
I feel that parents definitely need to make an effort to make their children aware of their AS and the symptoms that come with it, as well as connecting the child with others like them. .[/quote]

Whether on the AS or NT, I think it's important that parents teach their child that he or she is are a good and worthwhile person before expecting their child to develop friendships. How else will a child feel safe enough to open up to another person and relate?



ammeavid
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30 May 2017, 12:14 pm

^^
Very true.



MindBlind
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03 Jun 2017, 2:39 pm

Bluebird04 wrote:
I am a psychologist who works with women on the spectrum. Many women I work with identify with the idea that women with ASD are able to mask or camouflage their difficulties by studying books, TV, and magazines; imitating other socially successful peers or family members; unconsciously mimicking others; or adopting a certain persona. At the same time other women I work with don’t identify with this at all.

I was curious what others experiences were? Is imitation or mimicry something you used to cope and do you think it made gaining a diagnosis/getting help more difficult?

Also, I was curious as whether women on the spectrum think this is area that should be researched more?


I would say that I wasn't one for mimicry. I went to speech and language therapy so it was more like learning a language rather than hiding my symptoms. If it wasn't for my diagnosis and therapy I would have stayed pretty ignorant of social norms for a very long time.

But some of my friends did mask their symptoms. Their coping mechanism was based off of trial and error and constructing a persona that would explain their "oddness". Anything that fits the sensibilities of the average joe. This persona is not who they really are and usually it is a cheap imitation of what people are actually like, so they can seem shallow, fake and deceitful. In reality, they're just trying to survive the only way they have learned to and who they truly are makes them a target. It's a horrible dilemma, really.

On the other hand, I think I did show more of an active interest in making friends than male aspies but I'm also pretty uninhibited in social situations so I'm more likely to initiate conversations.



seaweed
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03 Jun 2017, 3:45 pm

thanks for the inquiry, bluebird! it is good to see that some professionals are listening to us and considering issues with the diagnostic process. this is surely a topic which needs to be researched more through official channels, because as much as we talk about it, there is not nearly enough research, data and synthesis to back us up yet (and to reach the sphere of those professionals who tend to only absorb information from within their circle).

i used to not identify with the "social chameleon" concept because i'm adamantly weird and i don't try to be normal, but through reading and participating in the women's subforum here on WP, i have realized which aspects of myself are like this. i think that camouflaging/masking and imitation/mimicry are often described in the way our psychologist friend has, when in reality i don't fit into the mold or at least it's hard to see the gray areas. rather than camouflage myself i situate myself in spaces and among people where my weirdness is more accepted. this has never been intentional but it's funny the way it all falls into place.

the small social gestures are where the majority of my imitation/mimicry happens. i'm not always on my game and i'm often not playing, but i know how to play well enough to pass. i have a kind of social handbook stored in my brain that i've been adding to, editing, and referencing for my entire life. being shy and quiet adds a layer of ambiguity on top which effectively creates my passing persona. i don't feel as though this persona isn't me (it's more like a satellite of me), but my game does have a battery life and as i've learned over the years, it's important to choose when to play sparingly in order to achieve real social happiness.



Bluebird04
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05 Jun 2017, 5:14 am

MindBlind wrote:
But some of my friends did mask their symptoms. Their coping mechanism was based off of trial and error and constructing a persona that would explain their "oddness". Anything that fits the sensibilities of the average joe. This persona is not who they really are and usually it is a cheap imitation of what people are actually like, so they can seem shallow, fake and deceitful. In reality, they're just trying to survive the only way they have learned to and who they truly are makes them a target. It's a horrible dilemma, really.


Some people refer to this as trying to be a second rate NT rather than a first rate Aspie........
It is important that professionals, family members, the community encourages and accepts people to embrace their Aspie characteristics instead of only focusing on treatment and intervention.



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05 Jun 2017, 8:44 am

Bluebird04 wrote:
MindBlind wrote:
But some of my friends did mask their symptoms. Their coping mechanism was based off of trial and error and constructing a persona that would explain their "oddness". Anything that fits the sensibilities of the average joe. This persona is not who they really are and usually it is a cheap imitation of what people are actually like, so they can seem shallow, fake and deceitful. In reality, they're just trying to survive the only way they have learned to and who they truly are makes them a target. It's a horrible dilemma, really.


Some people refer to this as trying to be a second rate NT rather than a first rate Aspie........
It is important that professionals, family members, the community encourages and accepts people to embrace their Aspie characteristics instead of only focusing on treatment and intervention.


Agreed. It was easier for me (once I accepted it) because I've always been weird and my family has always known me as such. But I didn't realize I was masking, so the problem was figuring out who I was and how much of it was me just imitating others. It's difficult to be yourself when society tells you - directly or indirectly - that who you are is wrong.

My sister works with several autistic people and noticed how similar I am to them, which is how she found out about my autism (they asked her if I was autistic, so I couldn't hide it now even if I wanted to :roll: ). Now she tells me all the time, "I don't think there's anything wrong with autistic people. I think there's something wrong with everyone else." :lol:



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08 Jun 2017, 3:01 am

Some thoughts on mimicry:

It doesn't seem to be something women on the spectrum do consistently. It seems to be more patchy. It takes a lot of energy, and sometimes it fails spectacularly, like a card falling out of a magician's sleeve.

How is masking affected by alexithymia? Is it easier to just fall into a role if you don't really know what you feel anyway? Do the very suggestible autistics do it more?

The problem with masking is that the person doing it doesn't really know why they do it, only that it works. I personally think that social behavior is often incoherent, but that does not matter so much to the NT person who is making their decisions based on emotion anyway. In the event of a conflict of emotions, the stronger emotion wins. It seems to me that NTs have a much lower tolerance for cognitive dissonance than autistics. On the other hand, this leaves the autistic person dithering over what to do when outcomes are not clear.

What I'm trying to say is that acting illogically is not a problem as long as you are not aware that you are doing it, but someone who makes their decisions based on rules can spend forever trying to make sense of social behavior.

Edit: I've stopped masking because it is exhausting and it makes me feel horrible. I only do it when it is fun to play a role, with strangers, in which case it gives me energy to have a positive interaction.


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Knofskia
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17 Jun 2017, 9:15 pm

When discussing autism diagnoses in girls and women, the subject of masking eventually comes up. The discussion usually covers those that do not mask appearing as either the aloof type or active but odd type and usually being diagnosed early, and those that mask appearing more as the stilted type and usually passing as neurotypical. I am glad more discussion and research may be done. I am hoping that further discussion and research will also include those that appear as the passive type as well.

I was not properly diagnosed as autistic until age 30. But this was not because I had more social training and learned to mask autism.
1. It was because I am a passive autistic, which is not as recognized as the aloof type, or the active but odd type.
2. Passive autism can also be explained away as just shyness, a reluctance to interact socially instead of an inability to.
3. Passiveness is also more acceptable, sometimes even endearing, in girls.


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AtomicBlondie
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17 Jun 2017, 10:48 pm

I think camouflaging and masking are utilized by those on the ASD spectrum and neurotypicals, with differing results. I consider masking to be like holding one's breath--it might be necessary but it's only successfully done for several seconds at a time and eventually one must exhale. For example, I can mimic the behavior of a group when I first join it in the hopes of being pulled into the discussion, but quite quickly, I "exhale" and the facade falls--which usually means I've slipped up and made another social faux pas or failed to answer a personal question satisfactorily.

I do think it's interesting (and amusing) that researchers are focusing so much on the concept of masking, as if there was a collective secret we're all keeping from you...some great mystery we've concocted. There's no mystery: we're just invisible...because (dare I suggest it) that's where the neurotypical community wants us to be. People only see what they want to see, what they're ready to see and acknowledge. When many of us were young children, our quirky behaviors, interests, expressions, speech delays, etc. caused (some) neurotypicals to isolate and ostracize us--some of us were basically strong-armed and bullied into how to behave appropriately. I didn't start masking as a masterful social gesture; I did it because I didn't want to be alienated or bullied anymore. I suspect I am not alone in this and I suspect many of us resent having to mask ourselves.



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18 Jun 2017, 6:04 pm

Atomic Blondie: On the one hand, I find it amazing that I can mimic and imitate others (to an extent) but on the other, I wish I could just be myself and not have to pretend to be socially acceptable. So yeah, I resent it.



Sofisol612
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19 Sep 2017, 8:56 pm

I do camouflage, but it is a behavior I learned with time and experience, so in my case it did not interfere with diagnosis: my autistic behaviors were so obvious in my early childhood that even though I had no language delay I got a PDD NOS diagnosis before I was four. I know, however, that for many other women it does make it difficult to detect their autism.

For me, masking involves speaking like everyone else around me, observing my mother and sister's behaviors in social situations closely in order to learn from them, and using some simple strategies (laughing when someone makes a joke even if I didn't get it, trying to make everything I say sound like I'm half-kidding in order not to offend anyone if I say something inappropriate, performing socially acceptable stims to reduce anxiety, etc.) Some of this I learned on my own after alanyzing some of my past social experiences, but my mother also taught me explicitly what to do in certain situations. I'm not sure if this counts as camouflaging. At the beginning, when I was a teen, it required constant conscious effort, but now it has become almost natural and subconscious. I can't even imagine what being myself in front of other people would be like.


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Sigarni
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23 Sep 2017, 7:17 am

My situation - I was not diagnosed until last year (I'm 42). My diagnosis is unofficial but accepted by my GP and other government agencies. The person who diagnosed me specialises in aspergers. I have, however, had a psychologist have a conversation with me and then state after 5 minutes that I did not have aspergers.
However, since my diagnosis I have told a number of people (mainly my friends), those who know me now and those who knew me as I was growing up. The response has been "well that makes sense" "that explains alot" ... from pretty much everyone.
There was one thing that might have made a difference for me. I was part of a speaking school where I had to give talks in a conversational manner with other women (mainly adults). Each talk had me working on a specific aspect of speaking (eye contact, conversational manner, gestures (physical and verbal),pronunciation etc). The talk was publically graded (needs more work, improved, pass) in a kindly manner. I think this particular program probably taught me how to converse and as I was primarily talking with adults I learned fast. I definitely know that at times I am just going through the motions - I do not always know how to respond in conversations. Is this viewed as masking?