UNDERSTANDING INTIMACY

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I’m an old professor with Aspie traits. My special interest is conversations; close conversations; conversations that create relationships, that bring intimacy, and heal psychological wounds. Most of my students have become professors with special interests in intimate conversations. Many are Aspie. They are helping me learn ways to enhance the interpersonal skills of spectrum people.
I want to get opinions from Wrong Planet members. Please let me know what you think about starting a thread on the three dimension that make or break relationships:
1. Uncommon Honesty to Common Dishonesty,
2. Accepting Differences to Rejecting Differences,
3. Giving Empathic Understanding to falling into Indifference.
These “HAE” (Honesty, Acceptance, and Empathy) conditions are shorthand for decades of relationship science findings. HAE is my key to understanding intimacy. My work at UCLA has shown that if just one of the three is removed the other two will fail. So it’s all or nothing. When a good supply of all three are there, relationships get healthy. Hard to do.
Our working definitions for uncommon honesty, deep acceptance, and expressed empathy are not exactly similar to everyday usage. I’ll need to define some terms to avoid talking in circles with anyone interested in this stuff.
Over the years my students and I have developed programs and courses for sharpening conversational skills, but they were IRL versions, and we want to make an on-line version. So this post is inviting you to share ideas for online support useful to WP members.

Please know my work is not focused on useful tips, even though it’s proved useful for solving some stubborn relationship problems. I have no quick tricks for making intimacy better. The goal is to bring understanding to the deep underpinnings of how relationships work in general. The belief is that knowing more about the basics will allow practical solutions for a variety of relationship challenges. It’s not that hard to figure out, but it takes months, and takes the discomfort of discarding common erroneous beliefs about getting closely connected.
I need help doing it online in ways that aren’t stuffy, boring, or insulting to other members. I have learned how to avoid jargon, and use real life examples, but I haven’t learned the latest mechanics of social media.

I’m especially interested in hearing from more experienced women. Reading their posts has given me some insights into the special skills Aspies need to maintain close relationships. I have connected with a couple of gifted professional women who have been critically and generously constructive. They have pushed me to write this post.

I think your first "task" should be to define intimacy. Is it sex? Hugging? While most NTs equate intimacy with sexual intercourse, many neurodiverse won't. I think you need to be a lot more specific of what you actually research (sex, hugging, just being around somebody).

Thanks for reaching out to help, rdos.
You’re right, I should start with a try at defining intimacy. I’ve never done that.
Sorry for the delayed response. Your advice was on my mind a couple days.

Here is a small start to get my feet wet. Am I headed in a useful direction? Am I being too stuffy? Do you like it?

Intimacy Definition (Extreme version)

It’s both a feeling and a way of being with someone. A natural human drive to connect to another, and avoid detachment, isolation.

Feeling:
It’s like I can tell her anything and she will understand. Feeling like she sees me as a valuable person. Feeling easy and free when with her. Feeling safe and deeply connected. Wanting to protect and prize her,

Being Together:
We tell each other about so much of ourselves. We talk honestly—no pretense, no hiding. We go beyond tolerating our differences to accepting them, to enjoying them. We often tune-in to each other’s thoughts and feelings. Being together is usually the extreme opposite of being lonely.

Textbook Style:
Intimacy is an inherited drive to attach, connect closely, share privacy, emotions, affection, and enter each other’s lives. This natural drive transforms to three conditions in a conversation, relationship, or love-making: Mutual Honesty, Lasting Acceptance, and Expressed Empathic Understanding. (HAE).

Rdos; is this a workable start for starting an intimacy thread? Thanks.

Are you wanting Aspie females? I am an NT lady late 40s who has been working hard over the past 2yrs to maintain a close relationship with an Aspie man. En route I have read anything I can find on understanding relationships between such very different people. I have learnt a lot about myself aswell as gaining a lot of insight into autism. More than happy to contribute if it would be of any use

Hi, Anngables--
You do look like a possible contributor; 2 years close to an Aspie man, a serious reader, and you can be forgiven for being NT.

So, sure, lets check out the possibilities. Maybe there's a mutual benefit.

Please tell me if my description of HAE was coherent. Does it say anything about your relationship? I'm assuming you two are coping with mutual acceptance because the connection has held for two years. Nice.

I've been with my wife for, uh, 30 years and we are from different worlds. Beyond wrong planet, wrong worlds that combine for the right intimacy.

Well thank you for your acceptance . . . I should say I'm not sure I am exactly a normal NT if anything I am at the other end of the spectrum in that I feel everything. I often can feel what others feel to the point of it being painful.

My friendship has been a rollercoaster for the past 2yrs and I'm not entirely certain we will weather the current storm. Time will tell.

The issues within our friendship which enter your definition of intimacy are around the sharing of information about ourselves. The willingness to open up and share what is happening, share emotions when we were not together (telling each other when sad, happy or excited about things happening in our lives) my friend found this very difficult. He often seemed to assume I knew what was happening in his life. Or to forget he had not told me things. The best place to find out what was happening for him was in his Facebook page, which to me was strange, and I would often feel hurt that he didn't talk to me. This is an issue that has become larger over time. In the beginning of our friendship riendship he would text me all day every day telling me what he was doing.

The next issue was misinterpretation of language. Usually through the medium of text messages. I found my friend often read things as critical or "having a pop" when I did not have that intention at all. He found it difficult to u derstand and make sense when I tried to discuss the issues I found in our friendship. He wouldn't often need reassurance at the end of a text that everything is good, and that I think he is lovely. His immediate response was to imagine a problem. This was not the case when we were together. I am a very open and smiley person and he would watch my face a lot to check I was happy. If I did get at all grumpy and irritated when we were together in person. He would laugh at me and make a joke that always made me laugh and the moment was over. However via text things would flare into an argument over apparently nothing.
From my part I was guilty of attaching emotions to words, rather than taking them in a very literal rational manner. I did often react in a hurt manner to something that had been text to me. Only to then take the time to step back and understand that no emotions were involved on the part of my friend. . . . It was me that was inventing them. I apologised for that a lot!

The honesty question. I never had any issues and I dont believe my friend did with me. From my perspective it was the lack of information or sharing that caused the problem. In an NT world it could be construed as hiding things, but I was aware this wasn't the case, but I still found it strange that if someone is supposedly your closest friend you don't automatically invite them to things you know they would enjoy.

Empathy vs indifference . . . . This was only an issue in the very early days of our friendship. I did think that he was selfish and uncaring when first getting to know him, until I found out about his aspergers. Then through my reading, talking to people on here and from just knowing him a lot better I realised he is a very caring, empathetic man. He just has different ways of showing it from the accepted norm. There have been times in the past 2yrs when I have been having an awful time. During these times, I received many more texts just chatting but also his way of checking in how I was, funny YouTube clips would arrive by email, and he would put a lot of effort into arranging our next trip as something I would especially enjoy.

So why is our friendship failing. I think a combination of him feeling overwhelmed with the effort of keeping t going at the level it has been. Him feeling that when I explain my needs I am being critical, and maybe he has just become bored?

Anyway this is a bit of a ramble as it is 5.30am here. I hope there may be some bits in here that are of use? Let me know if there is anything else I can offer.

Ps apologies for any (many) typing errors. My iPad is playing up and I just want to submit this before it all disappears into cyber world never to be retrieved again

Just a couple more thoughts . . . . The mutual acceptance was good. We both worked really hard to understand and not give up on one another because of our differences.

Feeling safe . . . . For me this was a huge one within this friendship. For personal reasons I was very vulnerable when we met,and my friend was one person I felt incredibly safe with. I truly believed he would never hurt me (emotionally) which is possibly why I am so upset by our current situation. It does feel a little that he has now given up on me. We certainly connected very quickly and intensely (never sexually) similar interests, humour and a feeling of understanding were present from day one,

However it may of course be that the need for his own space and time away from the friendship has come into play. We have never had a break in our communication prior to this time, and maybe it is just that he needs some time away for all sorts of reasons.

Then does it mean something about routine & tradition? Case in point I'm wondering should I send a message about getting back into a weekly date routine absent the schedule we followed before? Is it higher on this big shaky intimacy scale to wait & ask in person or just send the message to get it out there?

I think this is not the usual meaning of intimacy. At least not when it is a relationship rather than a friendship.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... h/intimacy



In the usual meaning, intimacy is different between a friendship and a relationship. In a friendship, it is similar to what you propose, but in a relationship, it is usually meant to be sexual activity. Which is why the word is so problematic, especially for asexual people.

So I'd suggest using some other word if you mean it in the friendship manner regardless if we are talking about friendships or relationships.

Problem is, all that you talk about in regards to this aspie man is what I place in the relationship realm. I need a regular contact in a relationship, but not in a friendship. I need to feel safe with a love-interest, but not with a friend. I need to form a strong bond with a love-interest, but I don't want that with a friend.

This kind of illustrates how NTs and NDs are pretty different in these areas.

Hmmm not so different. This was a really strong friendship . . . I thought we were soul mates. I guess for an NT there are different degrees of friendship. This one was very deep and special. I considered him my best friend. He liked this for most of the time and assured me he felt the same. I think however his feelings changed and he then became overwhelmed by how much I cared for him. You don't know tho as we had been out the day before the argument and had a lovely time. Who knows? Here lies the very crux of the problems we face in trying to understand each other on a very deep level. He would often say he doesn't know what he feels most of the time. He says happiness and mildly irritated are the emotions he mostly understands.

Considering the degree of connectivity implied here I think placing anything in this ambiguously intimate category involves a lot of patience & acclimation to the fact things can take time to become definitive. Essentially I just don't place finite terms on any relationship because I know I need to be generous with my time so we can both be understood. I'm leaning towards option B (wait & talk) on that text message I possibly should send but I feel that part of the AS definition is that both people should have plenty to think about.

Yes, rdos, I see the connotation of "relationship" leans toward sex for some, many folks on the spectrum. And that sexual meaning is also loaded for NTs. And thanks for suggesting I tend to that issue.
As you probably know the word has broader meaning for social science, so that friendship, acquaintanceship, work relationships, parent-child relationships dont carry the force of romantic relationship. I will be careful on WP because of your help. Thanks.
Asexual life is complicated sometimes by NT ignorance, so the distinction vivid to you becomes important. And it's also important to social media kids preoccupied with genital driven connections.

Those of us who are professional students of intimacy, must look at it from a very basic perspective that aims beneath popular language (30-40 years ago, before social media and sexual revolution, "relationship" didn't carry as much sexual connotation). We see human relationships as interpersonal entities with a sequence of occasions with or without sex.

The HAE elements can easilly apply to sexual or asexual relationships. The "uncommon honesty" construct is seen as people disclose bodies, private urges, secret preferences, and the orgasm is a distinct Honest self-disclosure. And, obviously uncommon honesty is a hallmark of deep asexual friendship.
.Acceptance (prizing, valuing,) is also a common feature in sexual connection, and so is E, expressed Empathy where orgasms can triggered by the others orgasm. HAE happens in sex, but--of course-- sex can occur without HAE--without intimacy.
I'm just wanting to be responsive to your helpful support of my try at discussing HAE as a handy way to understand all intimacies, which is almost saying without intimacy there is no love. Infatuation doesnt need intimacy.
Please take another look at the definition you advised and see if it becomes more consonant with what I've been saying here.

Not sure I'm completely understanding what you are asking here. My rules of engagement for text. If it is a straight forward issue that is not going to cause high emotions then texting is fine. If you know it is a more contentious issue, that the recipient may not wanting to hear. They may need further reassurance around your reasoning etc then I would suggest it is better done face to face.

Not sure if that helps at all or if I am way,off the mark,

Take care

I just mean I hope being patient about relationships for extended times builds the closeness that coincides with intimacy. That seems like the best way to stay at peace with open endedness.

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1. Hey, Anngables. This first disclosure from your earlier post says so much about you loving an Aspie man; You with an abundance of empathy and him that lives with less empathy. An extremely active empathic woman like you(dont say empathetic because it connotes sympathy but empathy is so different from sympathy or pity) is called an "Empath" in my profession. Empaths can struggle making lasting relationships too. They over-react and make conversations complicated. They can feel into emotions that their partners want to escape. They can feel so much that an Aspie partner might feel smothered, invaded, exposed--and another dozen "loving" things that penetrate another's need for serenity--for less stimulation.

2. I know about common reactions to an empath because I am one. It's both a joy and sorrow in my life----very much like many aspie lives are an advantage and disadvantage. Like you, I've got tons of stories about the little and big trouble my hyper-empathic brain gives me.

3. Unlike science fiction empaths, us real versions are not always accurate in understanding others' emotions. We're accustomed to hearing that we understood something "exactly" that we become careless about our "false empathic understanding" errors. Not many, but when we do fail to "get it" the consequences can be bad---like messing up a conversation or eventually killing a relationship.

4. Saying these three things about empaths is my try at being helpful, even if it makes u a bit uncomfortable. Since we just met, please let me know your reactions to this note, paragraph by paragraph, because I'm just learning how to do text conversations. Your terrific first try at simplifying the complex issues in your vulnerable relationship impressed me, but more than I can respond to in one post. Be patient with me as i focus on one thing at a time. And let me know if I'm too long. I'll need a couple days to respond--usually.