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DarthMetaKnight
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13 May 2017, 5:09 pm

Hi all. This thread will probably raise a few eyebrows, but this just has to be said.

I hate the term "eco-totalitarianism". Capitalists frequently use this term to insult all environmentalists.

Consider the following: Imagine that you life in a country that is literally an eco-fascist dictatorship. You whole life is managed, but the forest is very vast. The water is pristine and clean. What do you do?

I would escape into the woods and live as a hermit. The government probably wouldn't be able to stop me. I would escape into the vast woods and nobody would ever find me. Nature is a place where anyone can be 110% free, so any eco-fascist society would have a pretty epic loophole.

I know what some of you are thinking. I have some responses already prepared.

"Why didn't people escape into the woods during the Soviet era?"

The Soviets were not environmentalists. Looks at what happened to the Aral Sea! "Environmental Stalinism" is a contradiction in terms.

"Nature is full of violence!"

Capitalist societies inevitably become violent. The oil companies bribe the government and start wars. Poor people steal out of desperation. Police need to be brutal in order to stop criminals who are driven by hunger and have nothing left to lose. These problems are inherent in the system.

"Nature is brutal is you are a woman or are disabled."

How is capitalism any different?

"I don't know how to survive in the wild!"

Follow the advice that you give to other people! Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and be a man! :lol:

My Point: Anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-primitivism are very similar. Both are Darwinian nightmares. The main difference is this: An-caps are putting the fate of the human species in jeopardy. An-prims are not.


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mr_bigmouth_502
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13 May 2017, 6:05 pm

I cannot stand for any type of totalitarian regime. Fascism, communism, anything like that. I am a strong believer in personal liberties, and having a system which can support those liberties. I know you have this "big loophole" you say you can take advantage of, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I am forced to take advantage of that loophole to have any liberty, living as a fugitive without any support from the system.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.


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DarthMetaKnight
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13 May 2017, 6:19 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I cannot stand for any type of totalitarian regime. Fascism, communism, anything like that. I am a strong believer in personal liberties, and having a system which can support those liberties. I know you have this "big loophole" you say you can take advantage of, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I am forced to take advantage of that loophole to have any liberty, living as a fugitive without any support from the system.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

If you want to protect democracy, protect humanity.
Global warming must end.


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mr_bigmouth_502
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14 May 2017, 10:31 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I cannot stand for any type of totalitarian regime. Fascism, communism, anything like that. I am a strong believer in personal liberties, and having a system which can support those liberties. I know you have this "big loophole" you say you can take advantage of, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I am forced to take advantage of that loophole to have any liberty, living as a fugitive without any support from the system.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

If you want to protect democracy, protect humanity.
Global warming must end.

It's difficult to admit, but it's true. You know what would help alleviate global warming? If people quit having so many damn kids. The type of people who have kids are usually the type that shouldn't. Human beings in our society have a significant carbon footprint, and if everyone had the same standard of living as the average Canadian, we'd need three Earths, probably closer to 3.5 or four.


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techstepgenr8tion
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14 May 2017, 10:34 am

I'm a little fuzzy on the depth of the details but I remember the Nazi's did their best to bake environmentalism, possibly even vegetarianism, into the Hitler Youth training. You'd have to do more research to see what it was they were doing, it seems though to be something that they interwove with race, some Nordic concept of Gaia, etc.


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Fogman
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14 May 2017, 11:32 am

If it was a totalitarian regime, you would be unable to escape into the woods. Once you stepped out of your boundaries, you would be tracked, pursued, found, and brought back to face incredibly serious charges for causing ruin to the natural environment.

You could expect that in such a society, there would be strong social conditioning againt running off into the big bad woods natural environment where ou could get hurt with nobody to help you out.

In plain english, f**k fascism, and all other forms of totalitarian social control.


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Misslizard
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14 May 2017, 11:37 am

Bhutan has the right idea.
http://www.unpei.org/what-we-do/pei-countries/bhutan


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DarthMetaKnight
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14 May 2017, 12:51 pm

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
I cannot stand for any type of totalitarian regime. Fascism, communism, anything like that. I am a strong believer in personal liberties, and having a system which can support those liberties. I know you have this "big loophole" you say you can take advantage of, but I wouldn't want to live a life where I am forced to take advantage of that loophole to have any liberty, living as a fugitive without any support from the system.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

If you want to protect democracy, protect humanity.
Global warming must end.

It's difficult to admit, but it's true. You know what would help alleviate global warming? If people quit having so many damn kids. The type of people who have kids are usually the type that shouldn't. Human beings in our society have a significant carbon footprint, and if everyone had the same standard of living as the average Canadian, we'd need three Earths, probably closer to 3.5 or four.


I'm getting sick of the overpopulation argument.

OVERPOPULATION
IS
NO
BIG
DEAL


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DarthMetaKnight
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14 May 2017, 1:27 pm

Fogman wrote:
If it was a totalitarian regime, you would be unable to escape into the woods. Once you stepped out of your boundaries, you would be tracked, pursued, found, and brought back to face incredibly serious charges for causing ruin to the natural environment.

You could expect that in such a society, there would be strong social conditioning againt running off into the big bad woods natural environment where ou could get hurt with nobody to help you out.

In plain english, f**k fascism, and all other forms of totalitarian social control.


Okay, you guys are missing my point.

Right-wingers are constantly accusing environmentalists of totalitarianism.

Imagine that the environmentalist movement won. Would the environment be closed off? Of course not. It wouldn't be closed off because most environmentalists aren't fascists. That's the point I am trying to make.

We don't need to worry about environmental totalitarianism. That will never happen. If anyone can go live in the woods in your society, it isn't authoritarian.


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mr_bigmouth_502
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14 May 2017, 7:02 pm

Fogman wrote:
If it was a totalitarian regime, you would be unable to escape into the woods. Once you stepped out of your boundaries, you would be tracked, pursued, found, and brought back to face incredibly serious charges for causing ruin to the natural environment.

You could expect that in such a society, there would be strong social conditioning againt running off into the big bad woods natural environment where ou could get hurt with nobody to help you out.

In plain english, f**k fascism, and all other forms of totalitarian social control.

This. f**k totalitarianism.


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DarthMetaKnight
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15 May 2017, 12:13 am

Okay. It seems as though most people here like environmentalism but hate totalitarianism.

So ... why do right-wingers associate environmentalism with totalitarianism so much?


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2017, 5:28 am

Ask a right-winger perhaps.

I optimally associate environmentalism with emerging green technologies. I can see where they'd consider top-down legislative devices like carbon credits to be pernicious to economic activity but that's not quite the same as totalitarianism. If they'd call that totalitarian it might be an equal and opposite excitement to what goes for 'fascism' with left-wingers these days.


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DarthMetaKnight
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15 May 2017, 1:49 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Ask a right-winger perhaps.

I optimally associate environmentalism with emerging green technologies. I can see where they'd consider top-down legislative devices like carbon credits to be pernicious to economic activity but that's not quite the same as totalitarianism. If they'd call that totalitarian it might be an equal and opposite excitement to what goes for 'fascism' with left-wingers these days.

Economic activity?

I've always hated phrases like "the economy" and "fixing the economy". What does that even mean?
I've noticed that people will say "The economy is failing!" when big businesses are failing. When poor people are feeling fine but big businesses are having difficulty getting richer, people generally call that a bad economy. This is starting to sound like bourgeoisie gibberish.


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2017, 3:49 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Economic activity?

I've always hated phrases like "the economy" and "fixing the economy". What does that even mean?
I've noticed that people will say "The economy is failing!" when big businesses are failing. When poor people are feeling fine but big businesses are having difficulty getting richer, people generally call that a bad economy. This is starting to sound like bourgeoisie gibberish.

Sounds like you don't have much of a grasp on why you're not living in a dirt hut.

Carry on - I won't bother you any further.

(edit: a couple points I should add 1- to have a computer and internet to type on puts you in the global bourgeoisie 2 - when unemployment hits the right levels you get the global Trumpets; it short it matters)


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DarthMetaKnight
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15 May 2017, 4:06 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Economic activity?

I've always hated phrases like "the economy" and "fixing the economy". What does that even mean?
I've noticed that people will say "The economy is failing!" when big businesses are failing. When poor people are feeling fine but big businesses are having difficulty getting richer, people generally call that a bad economy. This is starting to sound like bourgeoisie gibberish.

Sounds like you don't have much of a grasp on why you're not living in a dirt hut.

Carry on - I won't bother you any further.

(edit: a couple points I should add 1- to have a computer and internet to type on puts you in the global bourgeoisie 2 - when unemployment hits the right levels you get the global Trumpets; it short it matters)


1 I am not in the global bourgeoisie. The richest people on earth are worth 7 billion US dollars. In don't even have half of that.
2 - If we want to reduce unemployment, the government needs to create more government jobs. It's that simple.


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techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2017, 6:19 pm

1) The global 1% income at $32,400 USD or 30,250 EU per year:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pe ... -world.asp

2) The government won't need this many people and even there most of the clerical/bureaucratic jobs should be automated out in as short of order as anyone else's. UBI would be the better alternative.

Either which way funding green tech is the much better choice than attempting something as top-heavy as carbon credits. The one thing that can be depended up on - human beings around the globe are human beings regardless of race, gender, or creed. They have social hierarchies, they play competitive games to sort those hierarchies out, it's part of why a country can't be outcome-egalitarian without being totalitarian. Green tech would buy us time to solve the more human problems of existence such as finding the best ways to harness/sublimate our evolutionary atavisms. Carbon credits would be yet another thing that the best lawyers in the world would be assembling to find the loopholes and keep cash sheltered.


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