Will we be weird in the afterlife?
techstepgenr8tion
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28 May 2017, 12:08 pm
I'm going to take my own stab at this, ie. what I think there's at least some evidence for.
When someone goes into a really deep state of meditation (with symbolic focus rather than emptying), does something like smoke DMT, or anything along that line that breaks or reorients the usual conscious/subconscious barrier very interesting things happen. They tend to find themselves going through, for a while, what you'd expect in terms of tightly profiled information arrays that have certain likenesses of going from an object-oriented programming layer down to an assembly code. The interesting thing happens when they go down below that and find themselves in a very different sort of place, a very strange place that finds coherence in a very different way but nonetheless still has it. Hearing about people's DMT trips, 'blastoff', and breaking plateaus, as well as hearing about ceremonial magicians and Golden Dawn variety Hermetic kabbalists exploring the paths of the Tree of Life between the ten sephira gives a very similar sense of alien places that one can pack up their whole conscious mind and go see providing they've trained the right way or taken the right chemical. You also have NDE experiencers saying interesting things about their voyages in other places but they're in a different situation than a meditator or drug user in the sense that they've packed up significantly more of their resources on their trip. Across those lines though the messages of a conscious monism seems to hold.
The other side issue is entanglement. We haven't known what to do with it because it's too weird, ie. information shouldn't be able to travel instantaneously between two particles regardless of distance. One way to probe this phenomena could be to ask the question of whether the space and time we think of is virtual or pragmatic rather than real in the sense of actual distances. I've off and on heard about the vacuum energy of space being something over 1 ^110 joules per cubic feet but I just tried to look it up and it seems like at least one of those figures of what it 'should be' based on Max Planck's calculations. From that perspective I have to remain skeptical of any numbers that are purely mathematically derived but not actually observed because any wrong assumption along the way can yield absurd math. If it were the case that a cubic foot of vacuum had more energy than the entire universe of matter that we're familiar with that would come out strongly in favor of the suggestion above, particularly if it was true everywhere in space. Again it would suggest that all of this is still folded up into a point the way it was at the big bang and that the big bang was something more like an initialization of some kind of activity in a particular domain set that seems to create light years of distance but in the higher reality does no such thing.
With that last block tethered to the first block we're not left with seemingly intractable questions such as how does consciousness on neurons leave a skull intact or, assuming its information, how it doesn't just fade out at the edge of a person's skin or into whatever they were laying on. The answer might be that it retracts into something that was a substratum of the subconscious brain, below where all the assembly code is happening and we know that healthy, living, breathing people can go and explore such places.
I know theories or ideas like this tend to throw certain types of people into conniption fits over what's pseudo-scientific BS and what isn't. I'd be the first to claim that it's not science, it's an attempt at making sense of an experience-first map of things. The two can't line up at this point because science hasn't come to map yet where certain kinds of experiences take consciousness or conscious formulation, data, etc. and with current instrumentation I think it would be extremely difficult to make that happen. I think both charges that meditators, NDE'ers, etc.. are 'far beyond science' and charges that you either believe the popular interpretations of physicalism which are more just unnecessary metaphysical assumptions bolted on to the current state of the art mean that if you aren't an atheist reductionist that you're an idiot - both of these seem equally unfair and myopic. The first is even more ironic considering that the world has always had magic, always had religious hallucinogen rituals, and for most of that time also had rigid caste systems and human sacrifice.
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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
28 May 2017, 1:09 pm
To say "Pro-tes'-tant" rather than "Prah'-tes-tant". I spent over 30 years being a "Prah'-tes-tant" without ever knowing the origin of the term and what we were allegedly protesting.
You were Protestant all of your growing up, but never heard of the Protestant Reformation? Wow!
Okay, I'm not sure to whom you were speaking----but, I get the feeling you were talking to me, cuz you've "wowed" me, before, when I didn't know something you felt I should've known as a kid; and, if you WERE talking to me..... I've told you before, I had a really rough up-bringing, and the most I had of which I call "brain-space", had to go to just paying-attention / learning how to stay ALIVE, in my felonious family of total NUTCAKES!!
If you WEREN'T talkin' to me----pardon me.....
Pardon me.
Sorry to hear about your ruff family life (don't remember us talking about that before).
I was addressing the person I was quoting. Not you. That being Leejoseph.
leejosepho
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28 May 2017, 1:37 pm
... I'm thinking we won't need to feel understood...
Agreed. All-around awareness and understanding will be the default for everyone and with all instincts and desires completely satisfied, and that means it will be impossible for anyone to ever feel anything less that complete.
...EVERYBODY (NTs, too) wants to be heard, accepted, respected, etc...
...and, maybe, one of the most difficult parts...is being able to put oneself in another's shoes...
(Also, I would suggest NOT telling ANYBODY that you're an Aspie...talking all about what YOU know...
If you only share that you have a SINGLE portion of what you have [ie, anxiety, depression, frustration, whatever], then that gives them a chance to share THEIR experiences, and talk about THEMSELVES...
...I believe so strongly in "Once you've made it through, reach-back and grab your brother's hand, and help him through, too"...
You make many great points throughout your post, Campin_Cat, and I believe the essence of much of what you are saying is founded in the fact that all people have exactly the same set of natural, inherent instincts, desires and ambitions: To be needed, wanted, loved, accepted, respected and all of those things that can satisfy each person's inherent instincts, desires and ambitions. Hence, and especially since there is no such thing as self-satisfaction of our natural, inherent instincts, desires and ambitions, placing the instincts, desires and ambitions of others ahead of our own is always the best course of action...
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace:
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy.
O divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
to be consoled as to console,
to be understood as to understand,
to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
Amen.
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I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
Campin_Cat
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28 May 2017, 3:20 pm
To say "Pro-tes'-tant" rather than "Prah'-tes-tant". I spent over 30 years being a "Prah'-tes-tant" without ever knowing the origin of the term and what we were allegedly protesting.
You were Protestant all of your growing up, but never heard of the Protestant Reformation? Wow!
Okay, I'm not sure to whom you were speaking----but, I get the feeling you were talking to me, cuz you've "wowed" me, before, when I didn't know something you felt I should've known as a kid; and, if you WERE talking to me..... I've told you before, I had a really rough up-bringing, and the most I had of which I call "brain-space", had to go to just paying-attention / learning how to stay ALIVE, in my felonious family of total NUTCAKES!!
If you WEREN'T talkin' to me----pardon me.....
Pardon me.
Sorry to hear about your ruff family life (don't remember us talking about that before).
I was addressing the person I was quoting. Not you. That being Leejoseph.
Okey-dokey----thankyou, for responding!!
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White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
Campin_Cat
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28 May 2017, 4:13 pm
Thanks!!
I agree with what you've said, here----and, I'd like to add a thought.....
You said: "...and especially since there is no such thing as self-satisfaction of our natural, inherent instincts, desires and ambitions...", and I think that's a really good point, cuz too many "kids" (ASDers AND NTs), nowadays think: "I don't need nobody"----and I can understand that, cuz I went-through that phase, too----but, if they would really stop and think, NOBODY gets anywhere without the help of someone else; I mean..... What, do they think they were just hatched in a barren desert, or something? LOL If nothing else, EVERYBODY had to be taught how to talk, walk, write, think, have manners, etc., etc., etc.----and, if they would just stop and consider, we all need each other; we need each other to, like, ping-off-of, if you know what I mean, to LEARN what we should / shouldn't do, etc.
Anyway, I also agree with putting others ahead of myself, like you said----NOT to the point of where I'm neglecting my OWN soul, cuz I don't think that's healthy; but.....
I've always said that I hurt much, MUCH worse, for somebody ELSE, than I do for myself, cuz I know how sucky life can be----and, if I can help ease that, for somebody else, then.....
Oh, I SOOOO love this prayer----I totally copied and pasted, and saved it. Those are, pretty much, all the principles that I try to live-by----you know, that ol' verse about "Do unto others...", and stuff.....
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
leejosepho
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28 May 2017, 7:35 pm
Yes, all of that, but I am also talking more about the fact that nobody can ever make himself or herself feel needed, wanted and loved, and then few people would survive for long at all if other people did not grow our food, build shelter, make clothing and so on and on. But if I am thinking of you to be certain your natural, inherent instincts, needs, desires and ambitions for survival and fulfillment are being satisfied and then you are doing the same for the next person who is doing the same for me -- altruism -- nobody is ever left wanting.
_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================
28 May 2017, 10:31 pm
That sounds awfully tedious, and boring beyond belief. Personally, I prefer oblivion to any vision of the afterlife that I have thus far come across, and that includes the ones from those who have had an N.D.E.
Speaking of N.D.E.'s, it's often said by those who apparently returned from "the other side" that the colours over there are extremely vivid, alive, bright and without counterpart on Earth, which makes me want to avoid it even more due to the sensory issues that would result from everything being a super-fluoro colour. It would be interesting to find out what people who have autism and/or Asperger's Syndrome experienced when they came close to dying, and how it affected them. All we ever hear about are the N.D.E.'s of N.T's.
29 May 2017, 12:31 am
Yeah, I agree----but, I'm thinking it won't be like that, in the sense that we won't have "feelings" / needs, etc., like what Kiriae was saying, before. I'm thinking that we won't need to feel understood. It's very difficult to describe / imagine----but, I'm thinking the attitude of "I don't care what anybody thinks-of me", which I and others have found, might give us, at least, a little taste of what it might be like.
I don't mean to insult your intelligence----you may already know this----but, you seem to be really reaching-out, so I thought I'd pass-along, to you, something that I have learned..... I used to feel just like you (and others, on here), in that I always felt stupid, less-than, etc., and I LIVED to be liked / understood, and I thought if I just talked my face off, that eventually SOMEBODY would see that I was smart, and WORTH listening-to / respecting, and so-forth----but, here's the thing..... I learned WAAAAAAY more, when I shut-up, and started listening to OTHER people----and the BONUS was that when I started to respond to what THEY were saying (as opposed to trying to, like, beat them about the head and face [not literal, of course], with what *I* knew), they started liking / paying-attention to ME, more. Funny how that works!!
Getting-along with people----REGARDLESS of the relationship----is about "give-and-take", and alot of that includes knowing when to add to the exchange (talk) and when to take, from the exchange (listen); and, it ain't EASY (NEITHER is easy to learn / "perform"). I've been a teacher, off-and-on, practically my entire life, and that works best, in THAT relationship, as well. Can you imagine, as a student, not being able to ask the teacher questions, to clarify in your mind, what she just said? Well, it's the same in ANY relationship, IMO, in that EVERYBODY (NTs, too) wants to be heard, accepted, respected, etc.----we, Aspies, are just much more "fierce" about it (bullying, really----or, "controlling", if you'd rather----about it [like I said, I used to do it, myself]), because we've been "stomped-on" (put-down, made fun-of, etc.), so much.
We, also, are alot like other groups of people, in that we over-correct (I've done this, as well)----we have taken, and taken, and taken, so much (been suppressed / oppressed, etc.), that we turn-right-around, and beat everybody else, down (suppress THEM); not thinking (or even caring, maybe), for a MINUTE, what it was like, when people did it, to us.
Also, as I'm sure you already know, NONE of this is easily learned / conquered / practiced, etc.----and, maybe, one of the most difficult parts of accomplishing this, is being able to put oneself in another's shoes; and, it seems like some Aspies either can't, or WON'T, choose to learn to do that; and, unfortunately, I can't think of anything to tell ya, to help ya out, cuz I was taught it, from a very teeny-tiny little kid (taught to put myself, in someone else's shoes - and then, because I've had so many life experiences [UN-Apsie-related], that has just made it that much easier). Just, maybe, if you're not already doing this, try to focus MORE on what you can get FROM other people, than what OTHER people can get from YOU (ie, listening more, and not trying to prove you're smart, so someone will like ya). I'm thinking you'll be surprised at people's increased positive response to you----and, I think you'll be surprised at what you'll learn, if you open yourself up, to receiving it (I've said, more-than-once, that I've learned more from little old black ladies on buses, than, maybe, I've learned from ANYBODY----and, I LOVE listening to them----can't get enough of 'em----have actually been disappointed when I haven't been able to have an encounter with one, on whatever bus-ride, and have considered it a missed chance at gaining yet another of their "pearls of wisdom").
Also, one last thing----going-back to the portion of your post that I quoted ("amazing to feel understood")----there's that old saying: "That's because they can't see the forest for the trees", and many, MANY people (NTs, included) will often think that they're not being understood, when in reality, IMO, they are often MORE understood than they realize. We, Aspies (myself, included - and others, with ANY kind of problems, really), can be very, VERY defensive about other people telling us about ourselves (reading us)..... MY theory is, it's because we haven't been able to figure ourselves, out----so, what makes anybody think THEY can figure us, out, when they haven't been-through what WE have; but, here's the thing.....
Aside from them being on the outside (outside of the forest, so they can see the trees), one doesn't have to BE an Aspie, to understand alot of what we go-through (this goes back to what I was saying about everybody wanting to be heard, considered, respected, etc.), all they need is to have experienced certain things that we have experienced (the catalyst doesn't always have to be ONLY Aspergers)----and, that might be frustration (although it wasn't Aspie-ness causing it, it's similar), "the blues" / being down on ourselves (although it might not be rejection for being different, causing it, they can relate), feeling less-than (although they will not have felt less-than by being an Aspie, they certainly have made mistakes that made them feel stupid / insecure)..... One of the things that they may not be able to relate to, is being so slow on the draw, so often (understanding people, what they mean, their humor, etc.), like we can be (myself, included)----but, even THEN, I would bet that they don't understand 100 percent of the people, 100 percent of the time!!
(Also, I would suggest NOT telling ANYBODY that you're an Aspie----because, if for no other reason, than because that AGAIN puts you in the driver's seat, steering the conversation, talking all about what YOU know [because chances are, they won't know / won't know much, about Aspergers / Autism]. If you only share that you have a SINGLE portion of what you have [ie, anxiety, depression, frustration, whatever], then that gives them a chance to share THEIR experiences, and talk about THEMSELVES----and, like I said, then WE have yet another chance, to LEARN; and, isn't that alot of what we live-for?)
Anyway, I truly apologize for this "book", that I've written, here (maybe I really haven't learned how to shut-up, afterall, LOL), but I've seen you all over this site, asking questions (like I said, what I perceive as, reaching-out), and because I believe so strongly in "Once you've made it through, reach-back and grab your brother's hand, and help him through, too", I wanted to throw my two cents, in there.
Campin_Cat
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29 May 2017, 2:23 pm
Yes, all of that, but I am also talking more about the fact that nobody can ever make himself or herself feel needed, wanted and loved, and then few people would survive for long at all if other people did not grow our food, build shelter, make clothing and so on and on. But if I am thinking of you to be certain your natural, inherent instincts, needs, desires and ambitions for survival and fulfillment are being satisfied and then you are doing the same for the next person who is doing the same for me -- altruism -- nobody is ever left wanting.
Yep, I agree!!
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
Campin_Cat
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29 May 2017, 2:26 pm
I'm not sure how you mean this----are you saying you don't think anything I said, applies to you?
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
29 May 2017, 7:11 pm
I'm not sure how you mean this----are you saying you don't think anything I said, applies to you?
I wrote a very long and detailed message from my cell phone replying to your comment last night. However, when I tried to post it, it's as though the site didn't want me to post my reply. On occasion, I've had some difficulty posting on this site from my cell phone, but I don't know why I had a problem. It could be due to the fact that I included examples of behaviors that I am often more knowledgeable about than most people in respective areas. I mentioned the 9/11 attacks and Osama. I also mentioned the politics of Iraq and why that war was foolish. Now the reason I was doing this was to provide example of how sometimes, you can't just nod your head yes as though you are equals in regards to respective subjects. I was very detailed last night. But when I tried to post, it said I had to prove that I was not a robot and went through the picture routine. I answered correctly but when I returned to the submit page, it posted the message with no response.
I didn't have the time then and I don't have the patience now to write out another thorough response because of this reason. I found your comment to be patronizing and condescending, written in the tone of a "teacher" (as you are) disciplining one of their students in the lesson of life. (As I'm not) I didn't appreciate the insinuation that I am rude and/or disrespectful to people, for you don't know this and seem to be assuming quite a lot. You don't know me and even if it wasn't your intention, that is certainly how it came off and it is not appreciated. You also seemed to surmise the aspie/NT difference into just telling the aspie to be a better listener. You seemed to imply that the problems I've had throughout my life with NTs is my fault...as if I don't go so far and beyond passiveness in dealing with people. You act as though I am to blame and I am deeply offended by this.
Also, I think you should look in a mirror and consider who lectures people when speaking to them. I think it's possible that your were talking consciously or otherwise, to yourself because your tone is what I've already stated it was. And anyimte I've ever heard someone preface a comment by saying, "No offense" or "I don't mean to insult you", it's because they know they are about to offend and insult you.
Reading your comment was almost bizarre. I'm asking myself, "who the heck is this person talking to? It can't be me because this garbage she's talking about doesn't even apply to me." It's like you created a character in your own mind who you have these issues with. Maybe it's yourself or someone in your life who you never got to discipline in the same way. I have no idea but you really should consider knowing someone better before you form judgmental opinions of them.
I'll bet you meant well, but you did not succeed in that. And if you didn't mean well, then you'll continue this thread in the same vain.
Campin_Cat
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30 May 2017, 6:26 pm
Okay, because you thought I had misjudged you, I went-through some more of your post history----this time, from the beginning----and, it seems like I have been giving you too much credit. I did find you to be rude and disrespectful (which I had not even perceived about you, before today)----disrespectful, because quite often you didn't even address the OP, and only talked about yourself; and rude, when you slammed a couple of people, when you misunderstood what they were saying (one of the people you slammed is someone who anyone would be really hard-pressed to find a nicer, more sensitive, more caring, more giving person, here.
I'll add only one final thought..... IMO, when we refuse to take responsibility for what is our role in, when things go wrong, we are doomed to repeat the failures.
I leave this part of the conversation with you, here.
Edits: The first time was to correct a punctuation error; and the second time, because someone posted after me and it said I had edited my post, I wanted to explain what I had edited.
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
Last edited by Campin_Cat on 30 May 2017, 6:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
30 May 2017, 6:57 pm
Just my take - i think we will all be wonderfully joyfully ecstatically weird all the time. There won't be any need for sex as everything is made new with no death, despair, grief, pain, or sorrow. What's hard for me is knowing what a poor witness i make to people of young faith, not understanding freedom and what it really is. What's hard for me to imagine is how some people think that our gender queer brethren aren't gonna make it in, like there could be any real beauty without those souls! They were knit together for a purpose in my worldview view just like any individual in any subset of peoples in this world. i wax philosophical, but it's my thought process.
Campin_Cat
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30 May 2017, 7:09 pm
You never know----you may have already helped someone strengthen their faith----all we can do, is our best. Because of my faith, I believe God knows when we've tried, and are sincere.
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
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