Trilateral Commissioner Zbigniew Brzezinski dies

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Kraichgauer
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29 May 2017, 12:26 am

Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
You do know that all of Europe would be in Russia's political orbit, then, don't you? Putin's intention doubtlessly is to replace democratic western governments in Europe with strongman puppet regimes that answer to him. You might be just fine with authoritarian rule, but I am not for us Americans, or our long time friends with whom we share cultural values.


Actually, no, it wouldn't be. As for the comment of yours that "Putin's intention doubtlessly is to replace democratic western governments in Europe with strongman puppet regimes...", well, you should be working for one of the many Western intelligence agencies if you really do have the ability to read the mind of Vladimir Putin and predict his every move.

Too many people over the years (yourself included) have interpreted decisions made by various Soviet and Russian governments as "acts of aggression", whereas in the vast majority of cases their moves were purely defensive. Do keep in mind that the USSR/Russia has been invaded by more nations, from all directions, than any other nation on Earth. They don't, and never have had, big wide oceans to protect them from the likes of Ghenghiz Khan, Napoleon and Hitler. Security is a Russian obsession precisely because of this, because they understand that weakness in the face of the American/NATO threat will be taken advantage of.

Look - just compare a map of Europe from circa 1985 with one of today. What do you see? You see the eastward march of N.A.T.O., beginning with the anschluss of East Germany, then the fall of the other ex-Warsaw Pact nations like Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary, the destruction of Yugoslavia... need I go on? It's like Operation Barbarossa in slow motion (if you don't know about Operation Barbarossa, then bloody Google it).

Do yourself a favour, and stop imbibing the idiotic propaganda from CNN, Newsweek, Time and all of those other purveyors of war-mongering, neo-con crap. They're LYING to you about Russia.


WTF is this obsession you righties have with Russia? It seems you sympathise with Russia much more than with your own country.
And yes, Putin has installed puppet strongmen in former Soviet republics, so it's not much of a leap in logic that he'd do the same in the rest of Europe. He tried in France, he accomplished it in Hungary, and here in America, he got Trump in, but our democratic institutions so far have proven too strong for the establishment of a strongman dictatorship.


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Kraichgauer
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29 May 2017, 12:28 am

Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Obama thwarted Russian expansion into Ukraine and elsewhere, which is why Putin hated him so much. That would not have been possible for Obama without that "global hegemony."


"Russian expansion into Ukraine..." God, what rubbish! Do you mean "expansion" in the same sense as the theft of the territory of Texas by the U.S. from Mexico? Vladimir Putin hated Mr. Obama because Obama was a two-faced (bleep). He hated Ms. Clinton because he understood she was a Russia-hating bigot who would have started a world war within five minutes of assuming office. The world dodged a bullet when she lost to Donald Trump (not that I like him either, but he really was the lesser of the two evils).



Again, what is this obsession you have with Russia, even at the expense of your own country?


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Kraichgauer
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29 May 2017, 12:32 am

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The Grand Chessboard is a pretty good explanation of US foreign policy and why we countries like Ukraine and Syria so important to us, it illustrates the aggressive expansionist policies the US + allies have had against Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union.


So Russia can do no wrong, and NATO can do no right, huh?


Go read Zbigniew Brzezinski's book on it, he laid out a lot of what is happening now back in 1997


And the Soviets were not dangerously expansionists in their own right? Consider the possibility that NATO was only reacting to Soviet, and later Russian, imperialism.


'The Grand Chessboard' is about how the US can keep global hegemony in the 21st century not about responding to Soviet/Russian aggression, so no you are wrong.


Obama thwarted Russian expansion into Ukraine and elsewhere, which is why Putin hated him so much. That would not have been possible for Obama without that "global hegemony."


You don't know what you are talking about, the Ukrainian issue is one brought on mostly by the EU/US who were trying to leverage Ukraine away joining a customs union with Russia in order to sign an association agreement with the EU. Ukraine's legal and democratically elected president decided against signing the agreement with the EU because they wouldn't let them be apart of the customs union at the same time but Russia ended up offering Ukraine more favorable terms. In comes George Soros who organizes these EuroMaidan protests with literal neo-Nazi shock troops who worship Stepan Bandera from western Ukraine and some mysterious snipers who shot at both protesters and security forces, government is violently overthrown by virulent anti-Russian extremists(their first move after taking power was to try to ban the Russian language) even tho half the country is Russofied. The East/West split in Ukraine was so stark it's obvious that Ukraine is an artificial country, Yanukovych won over 90% of the vote in eastern Ukraine and Crimea so I think their reaction is pretty understandable.


Putin had installed his own puppet strongman into power in Ukraine by interfering in their elections. The Ukrainian people had become sick and tired of being turned into just another Russian province. Just because Neo-Nazis had taken part in the Anti-Russian uprising hardly means that everyone involved was a Nazi.


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Jacoby
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29 May 2017, 12:42 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
You do know that all of Europe would be in Russia's political orbit, then, don't you? Putin's intention doubtlessly is to replace democratic western governments in Europe with strongman puppet regimes that answer to him. You might be just fine with authoritarian rule, but I am not for us Americans, or our long time friends with whom we share cultural values.


Actually, no, it wouldn't be. As for the comment of yours that "Putin's intention doubtlessly is to replace democratic western governments in Europe with strongman puppet regimes...", well, you should be working for one of the many Western intelligence agencies if you really do have the ability to read the mind of Vladimir Putin and predict his every move.

Too many people over the years (yourself included) have interpreted decisions made by various Soviet and Russian governments as "acts of aggression", whereas in the vast majority of cases their moves were purely defensive. Do keep in mind that the USSR/Russia has been invaded by more nations, from all directions, than any other nation on Earth. They don't, and never have had, big wide oceans to protect them from the likes of Ghenghiz Khan, Napoleon and Hitler. Security is a Russian obsession precisely because of this, because they understand that weakness in the face of the American/NATO threat will be taken advantage of.

Look - just compare a map of Europe from circa 1985 with one of today. What do you see? You see the eastward march of N.A.T.O., beginning with the anschluss of East Germany, then the fall of the other ex-Warsaw Pact nations like Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary, the destruction of Yugoslavia... need I go on? It's like Operation Barbarossa in slow motion (if you don't know about Operation Barbarossa, then bloody Google it).

Do yourself a favour, and stop imbibing the idiotic propaganda from CNN, Newsweek, Time and all of those other purveyors of war-mongering, neo-con crap. They're LYING to you about Russia.


WTF is this obsession you righties have with Russia? It seems you sympathise with Russia much more than with your own country.
And yes, Putin has installed puppet strongmen in former Soviet republics, so it's not much of a leap in logic that he'd do the same in the rest of Europe. He tried in France, he accomplished it in Hungary, and here in America, he got Trump in, but our democratic institutions so far have proven too strong for the establishment of a strongman dictatorship.


You have no idea what you are talking about, you really really need to stop parroting CNN. Victor Orban actually first took office as Prime Minister of Hungary back in 1998 BEFORE Putin became President of Russia both of which have overwhelming democratic support in their country's. How did Putin install anybody? Name one 'puppet strongman' in a former Soviet Republic, you are just repeating talking points and looking like a total idiot.



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29 May 2017, 12:50 am

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
You do know that all of Europe would be in Russia's political orbit, then, don't you? Putin's intention doubtlessly is to replace democratic western governments in Europe with strongman puppet regimes that answer to him. You might be just fine with authoritarian rule, but I am not for us Americans, or our long time friends with whom we share cultural values.


Actually, no, it wouldn't be. As for the comment of yours that "Putin's intention doubtlessly is to replace democratic western governments in Europe with strongman puppet regimes...", well, you should be working for one of the many Western intelligence agencies if you really do have the ability to read the mind of Vladimir Putin and predict his every move.

Too many people over the years (yourself included) have interpreted decisions made by various Soviet and Russian governments as "acts of aggression", whereas in the vast majority of cases their moves were purely defensive. Do keep in mind that the USSR/Russia has been invaded by more nations, from all directions, than any other nation on Earth. They don't, and never have had, big wide oceans to protect them from the likes of Ghenghiz Khan, Napoleon and Hitler. Security is a Russian obsession precisely because of this, because they understand that weakness in the face of the American/NATO threat will be taken advantage of.

Look - just compare a map of Europe from circa 1985 with one of today. What do you see? You see the eastward march of N.A.T.O., beginning with the anschluss of East Germany, then the fall of the other ex-Warsaw Pact nations like Czechoslovakia, Poland and Hungary, the destruction of Yugoslavia... need I go on? It's like Operation Barbarossa in slow motion (if you don't know about Operation Barbarossa, then bloody Google it).

Do yourself a favour, and stop imbibing the idiotic propaganda from CNN, Newsweek, Time and all of those other purveyors of war-mongering, neo-con crap. They're LYING to you about Russia.


WTF is this obsession you righties have with Russia? It seems you sympathise with Russia much more than with your own country.
And yes, Putin has installed puppet strongmen in former Soviet republics, so it's not much of a leap in logic that he'd do the same in the rest of Europe. He tried in France, he accomplished it in Hungary, and here in America, he got Trump in, but our democratic institutions so far have proven too strong for the establishment of a strongman dictatorship.


You have no idea what you are talking about, you really really need to stop parroting CNN. Victor Orban actually first took office as Prime Minister of Hungary back in 1998 BEFORE Putin became President of Russia both of which have overwhelming democratic support in their country's. How did Putin install anybody? Name one 'puppet strongman' in a former Soviet Republic, you are just repeating talking points and looking like a total idiot.


That hardly makes Orban any less of a strongman who Putin approves of.
I have to check which former Soviet Republics, but one in particular has a buffoon of a strongman who has his own reality show, and was obsessed with finding his lost cat on an international level. He doesn't make a move without Putin's okay.


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29 May 2017, 2:12 am

How is being democratically elected make you a strongman? You are using a word for effect but it absolutely means nothing.

Ramzan Kadyrov is warlord(an actual "strongman") in a very violent and very Islamic Chechnya(not a former Soviet Republic), the price of winning in Chechnya was allying with these warlords who switched sides to fight against the Islamist separatists. Putin has no interest in fighting a 3rd Chechen war and that's what removing Kadyrov would very likely cause which is why Kadyrov is able to act independently as he does.

http://carnegie.ru/2016/10/27/chechnya- ... -pub-64955

here's a good article about the whole situation and how it developed



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29 May 2017, 4:58 am

Jacoby wrote:
How is being democratically elected make you a strongman? You are using a word for effect but it absolutely means nothing.

Ramzan Kadyrov is warlord(an actual "strongman") in a very violent and very Islamic Chechnya(not a former Soviet Republic), the price of winning in Chechnya was allying with these warlords who switched sides to fight against the Islamist separatists. Putin has no interest in fighting a 3rd Chechen war and that's what removing Kadyrov would very likely cause which is why Kadyrov is able to act independently as he does.

http://carnegie.ru/2016/10/27/chechnya- ... -pub-64955

here's a good article about the whole situation and how it developed


I'll remind you that Hitler had used the democratic means offered by his country to come into power. Totalitarians have used the mechanisms of free government to destroy it.


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29 May 2017, 11:29 am

We've lost a clear thinker. I didn't always agree, but I always found his analysis sharp and illuminating.


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29 May 2017, 3:11 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
We've lost a clear thinker. I didn't always agree, but I always found his analysis sharp and illuminating.


Thank you for being that clear thinker. :thumleft:


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29 May 2017, 7:50 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
WTF is this obsession you righties have with Russia? It seems you sympathise with Russia much more than with your own country.
And yes, Putin has installed puppet strongmen in former Soviet republics, so it's not much of a leap in logic that he'd do the same in the rest of Europe. He tried in France, he accomplished it in Hungary, and here in America, he got Trump in, but our democratic institutions so far have proven too strong for the establishment of a strongman dictatorship.


First off, I'm not - NOT - a "rightie", if only because my political views are based upon what I myself believe to be correct, they don't reflect what particular political parties may endorse, and I believe that each and every issue should be examined on its own.

Secondly, I sympathise with Russia because it is, and has been in the past, encircled, invaded, and demonised. I support the underdog, the nation that stands for justice, truth, and the destruction of evil. That's Russia. Yes, it's not "my country", but then neither is Australia, even though I live here.

Thirdly, in this response you didn't actually address any of the issues I raised, instead opting to spit the dummy and throw a hissy fit.



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29 May 2017, 8:00 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Putin had installed his own puppet strongman into power in Ukraine by interfering in their elections.


He did? No doubt you can back up this claim by presenting evidence for it (NOT something from Newsweek, CNN, Time...).

Kraichgauer wrote:
The Ukrainian people had become sick and tired of being turned into just another Russian province. Just because Neo-Nazis had taken part in the Anti-Russian uprising hardly means that everyone involved was a Nazi.


The Ukraine wouldn't have become a "province". Is Byelorussia, in spite of its name, a "province of Russia"? It's a republic in its own right, with its own leader. I do, however, agree that Kiev isn't run by Nazis. They may be incompetent, crooked, and puppets of the West, but they're not Nazis.



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29 May 2017, 8:08 pm

1 Samuel 17:52


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29 May 2017, 9:31 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
1 Samuel 17:52


What about it? Relevance?