Is the Quran Hate Speech by modern standards?

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The_Face_of_Boo
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14 Jun 2017, 8:56 am

0_equals_true wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
The Quran is a modified copy of the Torah / Old Testament.

Islam is the continuity of an old NonTrinitarian faith (and Anti-Trinitarian!).

Non Trinitarian = Unitarian

Last time I was at a Unitarian church it was a Rock concert and the woman victar introduced the bands. :)

Not goign to happen in a Mosque.


These are new western Christian sects- I am referring to the ancient non-trinitarian sects like the Ebionites who were in Arabia.



0_equals_true
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14 Jun 2017, 1:47 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
These are new western Christian sects- I am referring to the ancient non-trinitarian sects like the Ebionites who were in Arabia.


Actually the evidence there coexisted in Arabia past the 6 century is disputed.

They considered Jesus as the Messiah. Islam does not. However both dispute his divinity. This is becuase Mohamed couldn't be a prophet if they accepted this, well I suppose they could have modified the Old Tenement more.

Islam's view of Christianity is a bit tagged on.

While the Gospel are far from immutable, certain detail about Jesus's life and also of the levant region are inconsistent with the Islamic account.



Last edited by 0_equals_true on 14 Jun 2017, 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

0_equals_true
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14 Jun 2017, 2:24 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
If it is than the bible also would be, it has some pretty violent/sick stuff to...


Except the violence is arguably more prescriptive.


I am French and will not argue the meaning of words with you my friend, but does that word apply to this.

Luke 19:27 - “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.”

Genghis Kahn did the same in the villages, towns and cities he took and he is considered to be quite barbaric and evil.

Regards
DL


I should jigged that that was referring to the new testament. Yes that is fair enough.

There are examples like that in the Gospels that stand out, especially in Luke. The Gospels aren't the most consistent, however the overall message is more turn the other cheek than spite them.

There are many Gospels not many of them are followed.

Other works like the Book of Revelation their significance is disputed.

In the Quran, it is more other way round.

It is also hard to see Jesus as a bandit ambushing caravans, or killing people.

If you have the odd example that stands out in the New Tesmpment that is bad enough, when repeated many time, and there is a much detail on how to carry out the violence that is a category all of its own.



GnosticBishop
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14 Jun 2017, 6:47 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
If it is than the bible also would be, it has some pretty violent/sick stuff to...


Except the violence is arguably more prescriptive.


I am French and will not argue the meaning of words with you my friend, but does that word apply to this.

Luke 19:27 - “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.”

Genghis Kahn did the same in the villages, towns and cities he took and he is considered to be quite barbaric and evil.

Regards
DL


I should jigged that that was referring to the new testament. Yes that is fair enough.

There are examples like that in the Gospels that stand out, especially in Luke. The Gospels aren't the most consistent, however the overall message is more turn the other cheek than spite them.

There are many Gospels not many of them are followed.

Other works like the Book of Revelation their significance is disputed.

In the Quran, it is more other way round.

It is also hard to see Jesus as a bandit ambushing caravans, or killing people.

If you have the odd example that stands out in the New Tesmpment that is bad enough, when repeated many time, and there is a much detail on how to carry out the violence that is a category all of its own.


Thanks for this.

The N.T. invented the lie of hell and things don't get more immoral than that.

I do not like that turn the other cheek thing if taken literally. It seems to reward evil and I prefer the, for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing, saying.

Slap me once, shame on you, slap me again after I position myself for it, same on me.

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DL



Tim_Tex
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15 Jun 2017, 7:26 pm

While I do feel that the Bible/Torah and Quran say some very outlandish, and offensive things by today's standards, I don't think reciting those verses should be a criminal offense.


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GnosticBishop
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15 Jun 2017, 7:47 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
While I do feel that the Bible/Torah and Quran say some very outlandish, and offensive things by today's standards, I don't think reciting those verses should be a criminal offense.


I agree.
Neither should making fun of them or of those who wrote them.
Let hope that Muslims get that message and stop killing those who do.

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DL



0_equals_true
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16 Jun 2017, 4:20 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
While I do feel that the Bible/Torah and Quran say some very outlandish, and offensive things by today's standards, I don't think reciting those verses should be a criminal offense.


I someone stood up and said "kill the kafirs" that would be incitement. Would a reasonable defense be that you are reciting an old book, even if you implore those to do it?



GnosticBishop
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17 Jun 2017, 10:00 am

0_equals_true wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
While I do feel that the Bible/Torah and Quran say some very outlandish, and offensive things by today's standards, I don't think reciting those verses should be a criminal offense.


I someone stood up and said "kill the kafirs" that would be incitement. Would a reasonable defense be that you are reciting an old book, even if you implore those to do it?


If kill the kafirs is not a hate crime then neither is, --- kill those who want to kill kafirs.

Reciprocity is fair play.

Regards
DL



0_equals_true
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18 Jun 2017, 3:08 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
While I do feel that the Bible/Torah and Quran say some very outlandish, and offensive things by today's standards, I don't think reciting those verses should be a criminal offense.


I someone stood up and said "kill the kafirs" that would be incitement. Would a reasonable defense be that you are reciting an old book, even if you implore those to do it?


If kill the kafirs is not a hate crime then neither is, --- kill those who want to kill kafirs.

Reciprocity is fair play.

Regards
DL



We are not arguing about whether hate speech as a concept is a good/bad one, but if something would be considered hate speech by modern standard, so with that in mind lets look at a definition:

"Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender."

So hate speech under that definition doesn't include those that compel those kill those that who commit hate speech.

It might incitement to murder however which is technically a crime, becuase we can't take justice into our own hands.



Chichikov
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18 Jun 2017, 8:44 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Both the Qur'an and the Bible preach hate, division and intolerance as well as inequality of women and gays.

Really? Maybe you could point out what parts of The Bible preach hate, division and intolerance to gays? I know you're going to quote one line in Leviticus without understanding its true meaning, maybe take some others out of context, maybe some where you don't understand that a sodomite is an inhabitant of a city and not a homosexual person :) Ignoring the things above though I've love to hear all about how intolerant The Bible is against homosexuals. If you can show it's just as bad as the Koran then you get bonus points.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/page ... ality.aspx



GnosticBishop
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26 Jun 2017, 3:35 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
While I do feel that the Bible/Torah and Quran say some very outlandish, and offensive things by today's standards, I don't think reciting those verses should be a criminal offense.


I someone stood up and said "kill the kafirs" that would be incitement. Would a reasonable defense be that you are reciting an old book, even if you implore those to do it?


If kill the kafirs is not a hate crime then neither is, --- kill those who want to kill kafirs.

Reciprocity is fair play.

Regards
DL



We are not arguing about whether hate speech as a concept is a good/bad one, but if something would be considered hate speech by modern standard, so with that in mind lets look at a definition:

"Hate speech is speech which attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, disability, or gender."

So hate speech under that definition doesn't include those that compel those kill those that who commit hate speech.

It might incitement to murder however which is technically a crime, becuase we can't take justice into our own hands.


Yes we can if we feel justified in doing so.

In fact, in some Western countries, they have laws against not taking the law in ones hands for the prevention of a crime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_arrest

I clearly show my hate for Christianity and Islam as they promote homophobia that causes some of their members to kill gays. I also show my hate of Christianity and Islam for their misogyny and denying women full equality under their laws.
I clearly show hatred for slave holding religions or ideologies like Islam.

They are clearly attacking sexual orientation and gender.

Do you see them as fostering hate against women and gays and if so, am I justified in hating those haters?

I see them hating without a just cause and see my hate as having a just cause. Does a just cause give hate a place in your heart?

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
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26 Jun 2017, 3:55 pm

Chichikov wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Both the Qur'an and the Bible preach hate, division and intolerance as well as inequality of women and gays.

Really? Maybe you could point out what parts of The Bible preach hate, division and intolerance to gays? I know you're going to quote one line in Leviticus without understanding its true meaning, maybe take some others out of context, maybe some where you don't understand that a sodomite is an inhabitant of a city and not a homosexual person :) Ignoring the things above though I've love to hear all about how intolerant The Bible is against homosexuals. If you can show it's just as bad as the Koran then you get bonus points.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/page ... ality.aspx


You must be living in quite the bubble to not know that Christianity and anti-gay go hand in glove.

Le me give you two links.

The U.S. calls itself a Christian nation so lets see if and when the U.S. embraced it's gay community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... ation_laws

There are still many states that are anti gay marriage but will let you do that leg work.

Further have a look at how some Christians are not anti-gay if your description of Christianity made sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_ ... re=related

This next is about how Christianity has tried to help gays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGFEDYrkDek

I you have not heard enough go nuts in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... sexuality+

Regards
DL



Chichikov
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26 Jun 2017, 3:58 pm

You said The Bible preaches hate toward homosexuals. I'm going to re-iterate the same question as you didn't answer it. Please quote where The Bible preaches against homosexuality.



GnosticBishop
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26 Jun 2017, 4:02 pm

Chichikov wrote:
You said The Bible preaches hate toward homosexuals. I'm going to re-iterate the same question as you didn't answer it. Please quote where The Bible preaches against homosexuality.


I am not your gopher.
Follow those links as that is all you get.

Regards
DL



Chichikov
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26 Jun 2017, 4:18 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Chichikov wrote:
You said The Bible preaches hate toward homosexuals. I'm going to re-iterate the same question as you didn't answer it. Please quote where The Bible preaches against homosexuality.


I am not your gopher.
Follow those links as that is all you get.

Regards
DL

You made the assertion, it's for you to prove it.



Chichikov
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26 Jun 2017, 4:58 pm

Given you can't actually quote any verses of The Bible that preach hate toward homosexuals I'll just assume this is because you can't, because you are wrong. I know you are wrong because I know The Bible says precious little about homosexuality, it is a common myth (by people who don't mind telling everyone what The Bible says even though they've never read it) that it's full of prejudice against homosexuality but I'm afraid it's not.

Now that you've learned something here today I take it you'll no longer be spreading these lies :)


Yeah, right, why let the truth get in the way of a good rant.