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friedmacguffins
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17 Jun 2017, 9:19 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
By your logic, we shouldn't be able to enforce drunk driving laws, because who are we to tell someone else how much they can drink then drive! :P

Should the drunk be allowed to make decisions, for others, assuming that he can't make clear judgments? Some are power drunk.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I thought it was already established what goes into vaccines.

You weren't practicing informed consent, because you didn't know the ingredients or their side effects. Most ironically, though, you thought that you should speak for other people, in your lack of situational awareness.

There are form letters, now, which conscientious objectors will hand to the doctor, so that the doctor will have to sign it. He has to acknowledge the ingredients, their known, measured, and accepted side effects. There's just a very small chance, that he will be held legally liable, right? Probably, nothing will happen. So, he should risk the expensive settlement. He should stand by his beliefs, if they are sincere.

You, however, will not have to acknowledge the ingredients, or their known side effects. You will not have to stand by any of your own claims, which you are making so cheaply.

Kraichgauer wrote:
There is little chance ...There is a far greater chance...

"Little" and "far greater" is subjective language. What is the chance. Who says so. In what respect is the scientist held legally-accountable, for these statistics; it affects the safety of others.

What happened, when the vaccine went wrong. We should want to make sure that never happens, again.

Has any harm been admitted, ever? How do people deal with that, formally.

You're being responsible, right? How do we hold you to it?

jrjones9933 wrote:
It won't be the wealthier, better educated anti-vaxxers who suffer the worst effects

Why not. What where these wealthier, better-educated, and un-vaccinated people doing, when they survived an epidemic.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I have zero regrets having my daughter vaccinated.

You spoke to the effect of her having autistic freakouts. Could that be your fault?

Even under the most conservative assumptions, a vaccine can cause fever.

Kraichgauer wrote:
if there is a health danger to others in said community

You can justify any random human rights abuse, on the grounds that you were in danger.

Kraichgauer wrote:
And yes, I, and the rest of the community, have a right to make health decisions for others

If it came to that, I would physically resist forced injections (of who knows what) as a matter of self defense.

Many of these questions, I have asked innocently, since my first year of biology. The teacher looked at me, like a deer, in the headlights. Why not just say, maybe, it's in the library. You will have to tell us. That is knowable, even, if it hasn't been discovered, yet. Maybe, you will be the one to find out.

Most often, it is not even accusatory. I am asking what do we know, and how do we know it.

Say that it's customary, and you take it on faith, without calling other people ignorant. What's wrong with that?

Don't answer, if you don't have anything constructive to add, and, particularly, don't issue ultimatums --
How do you tell whether it is attenuated, in other words, dead, or in in some diminished capacity. What is the threshold, at whichsome small quantity of live virus becomes contagious, and how do we know that, before in injecting it, into our bodies.

Because of the uniform and the certificates, on the wall.



Last edited by friedmacguffins on 17 Jun 2017, 9:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

jrjones9933
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17 Jun 2017, 9:22 am

^"No, yoosh the drunk one!"


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friedmacguffins
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17 Jun 2017, 9:28 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
It won't be the wealthier, better educated anti-vaxxers who suffer the worst effects


Why not. What where these wealthier, better-educated, and un-vaccinated people doing, when they survived an epidemic.



Kraichgauer
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17 Jun 2017, 12:38 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
By your logic, we shouldn't be able to enforce drunk driving laws, because who are we to tell someone else how much they can drink then drive! :P

Should the drunk be allowed to make decisions, for others, assuming that he can't make clear judgments? Some are power drunk.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I thought it was already established what goes into vaccines.

You weren't practicing informed consent, because you didn't know the ingredients or their side effects. Most ironically, though, you thought that you should speak for other people, in your lack of situational awareness.

There are form letters, now, which conscientious objectors will hand to the doctor, so that the doctor will have to sign it. He has to acknowledge the ingredients, their known, measured, and accepted side effects. There's just a very small chance, that he will be held legally liable, right? Probably, nothing will happen. So, he should risk the expensive settlement. He should stand by his beliefs, if they are sincere.

You, however, will not have to acknowledge the ingredients, or their known side effects. You will not have to stand by any of your own claims, which you are making so cheaply.

Kraichgauer wrote:
There is little chance ...There is a far greater chance...

"Little" and "far greater" is subjective language. What is the chance. Who says so. In what respect is the scientist held legally-accountable, for these statistics; it affects the safety of others.

What happened, when the vaccine went wrong. We should want to make sure that never happens, again.

Has any harm been admitted, ever? How do people deal with that, formally.

You're being responsible, right? How do we hold you to it?

jrjones9933 wrote:
It won't be the wealthier, better educated anti-vaxxers who suffer the worst effects

Why not. What where these wealthier, better-educated, and un-vaccinated people doing, when they survived an epidemic.

Kraichgauer wrote:
I have zero regrets having my daughter vaccinated.

You spoke to the effect of her having autistic freakouts. Could that be your fault?

Even under the most conservative assumptions, a vaccine can cause fever.

Kraichgauer wrote:
if there is a health danger to others in said community

You can justify any random human rights abuse, on the grounds that you were in danger.

Kraichgauer wrote:
And yes, I, and the rest of the community, have a right to make health decisions for others

If it came to that, I would physically resist forced injections (of who knows what) as a matter of self defense.

Many of these questions, I have asked innocently, since my first year of biology. The teacher looked at me, like a deer, in the headlights. Why not just say, maybe, it's in the library. You will have to tell us. That is knowable, even, if it hasn't been discovered, yet. Maybe, you will be the one to find out.

Most often, it is not even accusatory. I am asking what do we know, and how do we know it.

Say that it's customary, and you take it on faith, without calling other people ignorant. What's wrong with that?

Don't answer, if you don't have anything constructive to add, and, particularly, don't issue ultimatums --
How do you tell whether it is attenuated, in other words, dead, or in in some diminished capacity. What is the threshold, at whichsome small quantity of live virus becomes contagious, and how do we know that, before in injecting it, into our bodies.

Because of the uniform and the certificates, on the wall.


I will make something abundantly clear to you: my daughter is autistic because I am autistic. It has absolutely nothing to do with the vaccines she was given. I am autistic because my dad almost certainly was. My dad had been born in rural eastern Washington back in 1921, when the old west was hardly a decade or two past, and so he was never vaccinated for anything. And yet, I am confident had he been officially diagnosed, he'd have been labeled an Aspie. So much for vaccines causing autism.
Doctors have never denied that a tiny few have had adverse reactions to vaccinations, but the good far outweighs the harm, while harm by not vaccinating far outweighs the good. And a kid might get a fever? Big deal; I'd rather have a living kid who needs a children's aspirin to risking death of said child due disease that can be vaccinated against in the first place.
In closing: do not accuse me of doing harm to my child again.


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friedmacguffins
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18 Jun 2017, 2:00 pm

You were not taking a calculated risk, because you were willfully ignorant, when put on the spot. You could have just as easily opened up another browser window, and pretended to know what you were talking about.

Genes can be triggered. Bits and pieces of dead housecats, creepy crawly things, and toxic waste might have been the trigger. If it makes you feel bad, then, you have a soul. Face the music. Try harder, next time.

I am not just saying things, matter-of-fact-ly, to get on your nerves. I am accountable and expect other people to be accountable. Take ownership, over yourself, your dependents, and what you do. I have blisters, and my back hurts. I have spent my money, worn out lots of shoes, workgloves, and taken chances, knowingly. If you believe in anything you say, pay a price, don't be so flippant.

What was she injected with, that you stand by. Is it associated with autism, or have any accidents been reported. It is knowable. Get off your limbo, or leave me out of it, plz, ftlog.



Kraichgauer
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18 Jun 2017, 4:31 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
You were not taking a calculated risk, because you were willfully ignorant, when put on the spot. You could have just as easily opened up another browser window, and pretended to know what you were talking about.

Genes can be triggered. Bits and pieces of dead housecats, creepy crawly things, and toxic waste might have been the trigger. If it makes you feel bad, then, you have a soul. Face the music. Try harder, next time.

I am not just saying things, matter-of-fact-ly, to get on your nerves. I am accountable and expect other people to be accountable. Take ownership, over yourself, your dependents, and what you do. I have blisters, and my back hurts. I have spent my money, worn out lots of shoes, workgloves, and taken chances, knowingly. If you believe in anything you say, pay a price, don't be so flippant.

What was she injected with, that you stand by. Is it associated with autism, or have any accidents been reported. It is knowable. Get off your limbo, or leave me out of it, plz, ftlog.


Let me put it this way: a friend told me about an incident where a couple went to a doctor to have their child vaccinated. Just before he could stick the needle in, the little girl had had a seizure. As the doctor said later, if he had given the girl the vaccination just a minute before, there was no way on earth he could have convinced the parents that the vaccination hadn't caused the seizure. The moral of the story is, just because one thing follows another, that doesn't mean that you have a cause and effect.
Or another example: back in the 18th century, a crackpot French doctor asked various patients who had lost their sight if they had ever masturbated. When he learned that they all in fact were masturbators, he came to the conclusion that masturbation leads to blindness. Needless to say, it does not, or the whole human race would be in the dark.
Just because autistic children had been vaccinated hardly means that vaccinations led to autism. It hadn't caused my daughter to be autistic, and it hadn't caused me to be, either. Besides, those suspicious ingredients in vaccines, such as mercury, are no longer used; certainly not when my daughter was vaccinated. And even if there was a connection, I'd much prefer a living autistic child to an NT child who had died due to an illness easily preventable with vaccines.


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friedmacguffins
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18 Jun 2017, 6:13 pm

You still don't even know what it was. Is there a record.



Kraichgauer
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18 Jun 2017, 9:43 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
You still don't even know what it was. Is there a record.


Some of us aren't afraid of science, and I'm certainly not going to risk the health of the mass majority of children.
You may not like my answer, but that's what you're getting.


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friedmacguffins
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22 Jun 2017, 3:10 pm

Science tells you about each ingredient, in it's own words. There is no need to leave anything up to the imagination.



Kraichgauer
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22 Jun 2017, 6:07 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
Science tells you about each ingredient, in it's own words. There is no need to leave anything up to the imagination.


Despite those ingredients - or maybe because of them - vaccines work. Good enough for me.


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friedmacguffins
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24 Jun 2017, 12:40 pm

Then, this discussion is working, despite the ingredients.

I don't feel shame, over the inconsequential things, but this is life and death, if we are to believe anything you say -- a blithe, lukewarm, reprobation, even to the point of brain damage.



Kraichgauer
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24 Jun 2017, 1:37 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
Then, this discussion is working, despite the ingredients.

I don't feel shame, over the inconsequential things, but this is life and death, if we are to believe anything you say -- a blithe, lukewarm, reprobation, even to the point of brain damage.


A very tiny minority of people are taking a health risk if they use Tylenol, as in these individuals that medicine could cause bloody vomiting. Regardless, I'm still going to use Tylenol, as the benefits far outweigh the risks.


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friedmacguffins
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24 Jun 2017, 6:34 pm

You don't know what is in the concoction you were promoting. :wink:



Kraichgauer
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25 Jun 2017, 12:07 am

friedmacguffins wrote:
You don't know what is in the concoction you were promoting. :wink:


The concoction injected into both my daughter and me, saving us from dangerous diseases - and which hadn't caused our already existing autism.


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friedmacguffins
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25 Jun 2017, 10:44 am

Kraichgauer
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25 Jun 2017, 2:38 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:


This reveals something about Trump's racial prejudices that he would rather have kept quiet.


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