Communicating with Russians

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Kraichgauer
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14 Jul 2017, 7:40 pm

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Putin was able to cast doubt against Clinton with fake news and cyber warfare, that, cumulatively, enough inconsequential fly over states were able to put Trump over the top with the electoral votes.

Citation please. Evidence please. Which ones of the 306 electors who voted for Trump where influenced by Putin?

Those electors followed the vote of their states, and went for Trump. It was those red state voters who believed the fake news about pizza/pedophile cults and Benghazi crap. Were it up to the popular vote, or even if the electoral college actually assigned proper numbers due to population size per state, Clinton would be in the White House today.

If this, if that, if only. But none of that is reality. What evidence is there that Putin got any of those electors to vote for Trump? The thousands of democrats who sent them thousands of death threats certainly tried to influence their vote, that's a known fact. But is there any evidence that Putin swayed them in any way?

Again, those electors voted the way their states went. It was the citizens of those states who were unduly influenced by Putin. And even if Trump would have won without Putin's help, the fact of the mounting evidence shows how he and his people were working hand-in-glove with the Russians, which is treasonous.

As for treason, what about the DNC working hand in glove with a foreign government, with Clinton's knowledge, to win the election?

Jrjones explains very well how there was a Democratic interest in Paul Manifort, Putin's American fixer, and his operations in Ukraine. Not the same thing as what the Trump team did.

Sounds like the same thing for different reasons but with the same ultimate goal. Naturally there's going to be a "but that was different" defense.

It's fun to discuss, but it's all moot. Like with Trump's interactions with Comey there's a bunch of people running around claiming crime and even treason, but all the experts in the law are saying nope. It looks bad politically sure, but that's probably as far as it will go, like with everything else so far.

The difference is, the Democrats never lied about such inquiries, nor did they ever fire anyone in charge of an investigation into said inquiries. The Democrats have nothing to hide on this subject, but Trump and company definitely do. That implies something illegal.

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EzraS
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15 Jul 2017, 12:13 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

What does Trump and company definitely have to hide on this subject at this point?

DarthMetaKnight
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15 Jul 2017, 12:28 am

Does this really have to be an all-or-nothing issue?

Yeah, the Russians probably influenced the American election, but there were plenty of other factors at work.

Furthermore, America has influenced Russian elections in the past. America meddled with the post-Soviet elections in order to get Yeltsin into power. That was a disaster for the Russian people ... but it was another victory for corporate America.

What goes around comes around I guess.

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jrjones9933
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15 Jul 2017, 12:47 am

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

What does Trump and company definitely have to hide on this subject at this point?

They have failed at hiding a lot, so far.

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Kraichgauer
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15 Jul 2017, 1:33 am

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

What does Trump and company definitely have to hide on this subject at this point?

Must be pretty bad, considering that Trump fired his head of the FBI. Why would they be lying about such meetings with the Russians if there's nothing there?

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EzraS
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15 Jul 2017, 5:15 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

My thoughts exactly. And no nation has ever done anything as bad to the US as it's done to others. Japan attacks Peal Harbor, the US nukes Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

EzraS
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15 Jul 2017, 5:28 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

What does Trump and company definitely have to hide on this subject at this point?

Must be pretty bad, considering that Trump fired his head of the FBI. Why would they be lying about such meetings with the Russians if there's nothing there?

That's just speculation though.

What I noticed with junior's meeting with the Russian is that it didn't take years of investigating to find out about it. And there was no lack of disclosure or anonymous parties involved. Who, what, when, where, why and how were all clearly spelled out. To me that's what something genuine looks like.

Compare that to the other stuff that contains no details and has anonymous sources, that's comprised entirely of claims, accusations, speculation and innuendo and is supposed to require years of investigation. To me that's what something bogus looks like.

ASPartOfMe
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15 Jul 2017, 9:18 am

Trump Jr. "forgot" to mention a couple of participants in the meeting.
Donald Trump Jr: Former Soviet counterintelligence officer confirms he attended Russian lawyer meeting

Quote:

Mr Akhmetshin has been active in Washington for a number of years, mostly on Russia-related issues Hermitage Capital Management
A Russian former military operative with links to counterintelligence also attended Donald Trump Jr’s notorious meeting with a Russian lawyer about obtaining possibly incriminating information about Hillary Clinton.

Rinat Akhmetshin, a dual Russian-American citizen and lobbyist who has been accused of acting as “an unregistered agent for Russian interests” and with ties to Russian military intelligence service, or GRU, has confirmed he attended the meeting with lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya.

Also participating in the meeting was a US-based Russian translator, Anatoli Samochornov, who had worked previously for Ms Veselnitskaya and the US State Department at various points.

Trump contradicts his son and suggests he knew about lawyer meeting
Mr Akhmetshin said he accompanied Ms Veselnitskaya to Trump Tower on 9 June 2016. Although he had known and worked with Ms Veselnitskaya for a number of years, he said he had only learned about the meeting that day when she asked him to attend. He said he showed up in jeans and a T-shirt.

Mr Trump Jr’s account of the meeting, which has shifted several times, failed to mention the presence of Mr Akhmetshin, or the translator.

Mr Akhmetshin said Ms Veselnitskaya brought a plastic folder with her, containing printed documents that detailed what she believed could potentially be the flow of illicit funds to the Democratic National Committee. Ms Veselnitskaya presented the contents of the documents to the Trump associates and suggested that making the information public could help the Trump campaign, he said.

Mr Trump Jr asked the lawyer if she had all the evidence to back up her claims, according to Mr Akhmetshin, including whether she could demonstrate the flow of the money. But Ms Veselnitskaya allegedly claimed the Trump campaign would need to research it more.

After that exchange, Mr Trump Jr lost interest, Mr Akhmetshin said. “They couldn’t wait for the meeting to end,” he told the Associated Press.

Mr Akhmetshin said he does not know if Ms Veselnitskaya’s documents were provided by the Russian government. He said he thinks she left the materials with the Trump associates. It was unclear if she handed the documents to anyone in the room, or simply left them behind, he said.

Mr Akhmetshin has denied that he worked for the GRU, saying he served in the Soviet Army from 1986 to 1988 after he was drafted but was not trained in spy tradecraft. He said his unit operated in the Baltics and was “loosely part of counterintelligence”.

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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 15 Jul 2017, 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

EzraS
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15 Jul 2017, 9:53 am

^ How can what that guy says be trusted? he's a Russian :wink:

ASPartOfMe
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15 Jul 2017, 10:33 am

Of course, he can't be trusted.
My conspiracy theory. Russians are sorry they backed Trump. They are now engaging in a disinformation campaign against Trump to cut their losses. It is up to Muller to figure out this mess, not me.

jrjones9933
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15 Jul 2017, 11:41 am

In one sense, Russia did win. They have a US government who seem uncertain and paralyzed. That phenomenon shows no signs of ending.

Things don't look good for my people here in the US, though. We should have united against a common adversary, to some extent. There should be a reasonable middle in Congress who can fix the real problems with our health care. Establishment Dems are making all the right noises about being ready to work, but I just don't see Trump/McConnell/Ryan having a serious willingness to engage.

I have also wondered why the DNCC would spend so much on these special elections to replace Trump appointees. The people who made the short lists would not select someone if they didn't feel sure of electing another Republican from that region to replace the appointee. Maybe the DNCC feels like they need to build morale and momentum by fighting for every seat, but I don't see how a string of expensive losses going into the midterms improves morale.

For myself, I really didn't think our government gridlock could get any worse after Obama and a Republican dominated Congress, but it has. Instead of Texas suing to limit Executive Privilege, we have California. No real change there, in terms of policy implementation.

The Republicans had it fairly easy, knowing Obama would veto all of their favorite legislation. The proposals didn't even really have to make sense, but only sound good. Now that has changed, and even though they had 6 years, they have no feasible reform plan.

On one hand, I feel relived that the Trump/Pence policy agenda has stalled. On the other hand, I take a Democratic view that the institutions of the government serve a lot of useful functions, which this chaos threatens.

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funeralxempire
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15 Jul 2017, 12:18 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Tangent:

Russians didn't expect Trump to win and had no real interest in getting him into power. Their primary goal was to sow confusion and undermine trust in American democracy. If their boy won and did what they wanted they'd leave him alone; but since the sanctions are still in place and eliminating them doesn't appear to be on the agenda they're sticking to the main plan of making a joke out of the American political system. Guess who's the punchline?

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jrjones9933
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15 Jul 2017, 3:29 pm

The Russians appear clumsy. Let's not overstate the simplicity of sending a lawyer with a dossier of dirt on the Hils. As Ezra has mentioned, they didn't break any great security. Of course, it's still a crime to steal an unlocked bike.

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Kraichgauer
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15 Jul 2017, 3:57 pm

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

What does Trump and company definitely have to hide on this subject at this point?

Must be pretty bad, considering that Trump fired his head of the FBI. Why would they be lying about such meetings with the Russians if there's nothing there?

Lying about it implies consciousness of guilt. Firing the head of the FBI, in order to stop the Russian investigation, shows there is something very much there, very much like Nixon firing the Watergate special prosecutor.

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jrjones9933
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18 Jul 2017, 3:18 pm

Members of the Trump campaign were accessories after the fact to Russian criminal interference with our election. That's okay now?

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19 Jul 2017, 2:35 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

America has meddled in loads of other countries elections. Very much what goes around comes around.

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