Austrailan Nationalist calls for segregating Autistic kids

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Alita
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22 Jun 2017, 5:31 pm

I'm not against autistic kids getting extra support and having the option of leaving traditional classrooms because of sensory issues etc (especially if bullying is involved), but the way Pauline Hanson phrased her comments bugs me. She gives the impression she's trying to protect the 'poor neurotypical Aussie kids' - 'our kids', she calls them, and she often uses the word "our" when wanting to create emotional division in Australian culture - from autistic kids.

I agree with Sweetleaf that autistic kids shouldn't be swept with one uniform motion out into special classes but receive individual support, because there are as many of us on the spectrum as there are different diets that work for fat people to lose weight.

But remember, this is the same woman that brought us the phrase: "I believe Australia is in danger of being overrun by Asians," and, so far as I know, the only politician to have appeared on Dancing With the Stars. I don't think she even takes herself seriously; I think of her as the Troll of Parliament. :jester:


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23 Jun 2017, 9:17 am

"many districts were occupied almost exclusively by asians, and they advertise the wares in their shops in chinese with no attempt to also issue an english translation."

That's a business decision, call it offline targeted advertising, want to know what something is, just ask (some customers will be, not so many people can read 漢字). Really the tales that ultra-lazy nationalists tell themselves!

As for Pauline, she is just after press. Her carry on over "Asians" got her fame in the 90's, but that died away. Now that the legal spat over political donations has run it's course. She needed another hit.

Pauline 2.0 was all about stoking a halal conspiracy (as well as the usual nationalist jingoism) Great succes, rapidly built a party of what appear to be incompetent fools (truly their own worst enemy). Finds out that not all press is good press, needs relevance and distraction.

Enter Pauline 3.0: jump on the anti-vaccination brigade, and go after a new group who (hopefully) don't have any political defenders. Children with ASD (and note, she is tarring all ASD/PDD with that same brush as "rain-man" autism…)



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23 Jun 2017, 12:17 pm

namesalltaken wrote:

Enter Pauline 3.0: jump on the anti-vaccination brigade, and go after a new group who (hopefully) don't have any political defenders. Children with ASD (and note, she is tarring all ASD/PDD with that same brush as "rain-man" autism…)


There is nothing to tar. People in the rain man part of the spectrum are just as worthy as other Autistics.

I am heartened by how this is going so far. As it turns out autistics have a lot of political defenders in Austrailia, the vast majority of politicians and media are condeming her. If handled correctly this could turn out to be a good thing. It has made people think of autistics as humans with feelings that have been hurt by the her comments. Australian disability advocates have probably gotten more exposure in the last two days then in the last two years.


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23 Jun 2017, 12:53 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
namesalltaken wrote:
Enter Pauline 3.0: jump on the anti-vaccination brigade, and go after a new group who (hopefully) don't have any political defenders. Children with ASD (and note, she is tarring all ASD/PDD with that same brush as "rain-man" autism…)

There is nothing to tar. People in the rain man part of the spectrum are just as worthy as other Autistics.

I am heartened by how this is going so far. As it turns out autistics have a lot of political defenders in Austrailia, the vast majority of politicians and media are condeming her. If handled correctly this could turn out to be a good thing. It has made people think of autistics as humans with feelings that have been hurt by the her comments. Australian disability advocates have probably gotten more exposure in the last two days then in the last two years.

Indeed. Each of these links have links to even more news reports:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-23/k ... ts/8643962

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ith-autism

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/national ... gregation/


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23 Jun 2017, 7:19 pm

I think B9 has already said much of what I was going to post

As an Australian Pauline Hanson only represents the right wing fringe of Australian politics. Yes she does use the word "our" when describing mainstream kids which is in accordance with right wing conservative thinking

Some interesting views from Australian kids on the spectrum in relation to Hanson's views
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-23/k ... ts/8643962

Of course she never bothered to check her facts (much like many right wing pot stirrers) that i) evidence based research supports integrated classrooms and ii) the vast majority of autistic kids placed in mainstream because they are not disruptive but academic orientated and often outperform nuerotypical kids

My daughter is academic but she can be disruptive and I am aware teachers and aides have expressed concern over her inclusion in mainstream classes. This issue is unfortunately puts her in the spotlight as Hanson would like to see kids like my daughter removed so she can win a few votes



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23 Jun 2017, 8:32 pm

However poorly she may have expressed herself, or for whatever reasons, she isn't wrong.

I would have fared much better academically all through school, in separate classes and without the pressure of having to learn in the same way and at the same pace as the NT students. In many ways, I was several levels ahead of my peer group, because I read so much on my own, and having to study along with the NTS was excruciatingly tedious, as I already knew what they were struggling to learn for the first time. OTOH, in some subjects, like math, I struggled, not because I couldn't comprehend the subject, but because the methods of teaching NTs absolutely did not penetrate my Aspergian sense of logic.

So I agree wholeheartedly that autistic students should be separated into special classes and receive specialized curricula, designed for their alternate educational needs. The political reasons for it are ultimately irrelevant, it's a win-win for everyone.


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24 Jun 2017, 12:35 am

will@rd wrote:
So I agree wholeheartedly that autistic students should be separated into special classes and receive specialized curricula, designed for their alternate educational needs. The political reasons for it are ultimately irrelevant, it's a win-win for everyone.


If that were so. The current options are mainstream OR special needs schools...



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24 Jun 2017, 2:49 am

i will try to outline a few topics here and i am unsure in what sequence to talk about them....anyway...

speaking from my own experience and perspective, i will say that it is probably a good idea to tailor the classroom experience with the students it is designed to teach.
in my case, i was gifted, but i still held the class back when i was in mainstream schools.
i had a comorbid condition called "opposition defiant disorder" and it made me very disagreeable to instructions or orders.
i opposed the teacher at every available opportunity. it is quite a complex condition really.
when i opposed teachers and refused to obey their instructions, the "normal" kids would erupt into fits of disbelieving laughter, and the order and calmness of the situation was disrupted.

some examples:
when standing up, i always had my hands in my pockets, and sometimes teachers would say "get your hands out of your pockets", and i always refused and argued with them saying things like "they are my pockets and my hands, and i will do what i wish with them!"
sometimes they would then try to lift my arm so my hand would come out of a pocket, but i grabbed onto the material inside my pocket, and even if they lifted me off the ground trying to remove my hand from my pocket, i still held on to the insides of my pocket and argued fervently with them the whole time.
__________
example:

teacher says we have to write an essay on the construction principles of tudor architecture.
i ask "why?"
example conversation...
him: because you've been told to lad.
me: lad indeed!! ! and i am asking you why i have to write an essay on it?
him: i'm not going to argue with you son but....
me: well you're arguing now!
him: ok lad! get out.
me: so i don't have to write an essay?
him: i'll see you in a minute.

then i would be marched off to their office which was a 2 person job to get me there, and i flat out refused to put my hand out for the cane.

normal kids from the class usually followed the scene all the way down the hallway and were entertained maximally by my antics.

it always resulted eventually in expulsion.

so year 6 and half of year 7 was spent in normal schools, and during that time i went to 4 different schools.

eventually in year 7, i was "hospitalized" in an "adolescent unit" which was absolutely so much fun for me.
it was so free and we could smoke and wear plain clothes and call the teachers and the nurses by their first names, and there were all kinds of strange and interesting kids there.

in the place i went to ("rivendell adolescent unit"), there were 19 kids (all boarders) at the place which was a victorian sandstone mansion built for the governor of NSW in 1890 or so. it had an east and west wing and a bell tower and a theatre and all manner of exotic trappings in it.
everyone had their own private bedroom.
it was co-ed and there was quite a bit of hanky panky between the boys and girls.
there were no psychotic or severe cases at the place. it was for "behaviorally different" kids that did not fit into the mainstream system.

i got my schoolwork via the "correspondence school", and it was always sent every week in an envelope, and the teachers we had were just aids to assist us in what we did not understand.

if someone got the s**t's they just stood up and left the classroom and came back in when they had cooled off.
no problem.

my behavior improved dramatically there, and i loved the place (on 200 acres of rolling grounds with a horse stable and another abandoned mansion at the back of the grounds).

i am sure that if i had remained in mainstream schooling, as much as i was not ret*d, i would have been obstructed by my frustration at the normal kids manner of going about things and the teacher's expectations of unquestioning obedience.

but there remains the stigma of being "quarantined" (as it were) for kids who feel insulted or degraded by their removal from the mainstream education classes.

yeah "boo hoo hoo"

but if it was described in a different way, then that would probably make a difference.

let's say the special schools that autistic people may be sent to are described as "extended learning" schools.
then it would not be apparent to the normal kids why the autistic kid was sent there.
"extended learning" may imply a school that is specially designed for gifted people.
or it may imply that a school has a differing curriculum designed for those that do not do well in a maninstream (what an ironic misspelling) curriculum.

it is not called a "slow learner" class or any other derogatory name.
anyway, some autistic kids want badly to be normal, and they require association with normal kids, and if they are that aware, then they are likely to be more fluent in a mainstream situation.

and my pies are ready which is more important than all of this.



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24 Jun 2017, 3:39 am

b9 wrote:
and my pies are ready which is more important than all of this.

LOL! hope you enjoyed your pies B9 - thanks for sharing your experiences, its quite useful given my own kid is about tackle highschool :(



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24 Jun 2017, 3:59 am

cyberdad wrote:
b9 wrote:
and my pies are ready which is more important than all of this.

LOL! hope you enjoyed your pies B9 - thanks for sharing your experiences, its quite useful given my own kid is about tackle highschool :(


every one is totally different.
your child should be addressed individually obviously.

it is a very common co-morbidity to have "ODD" in an autistic person who is dissatisfied with their stewardship.

here is another example of why i was removed.

i went to the newsagent and got a stamp made which was a ring of a "common seal" and written around the ring was my name followed by "esquire".
i also got a red stamp pad and i held both the stamp and the stamp pad in my top pocket of my shirt at all times when not in class.
i also had an assortment of pens and pencils wedged into my top pocket and i shoved everything i could into it because i knew that the teachers would remark on it.
if they ignored it in favor of peaceful cooperation, then when i was in class, i put the stamp and the stamp pad on my desk and i scribbled out heaps of pages of waffle when asked to write my answer, and at the end of each page i thumped the stamp hard onto the stamp pad and then i banged it onto the bottom of every page i wrote, and the rest of the class used to erupt into a suppressed but hard to conceal laughter at my behavioral oddity.
the teacher then wanted to steal my stamp and my pad and sparks went on for ages surrounding that issue.

if your kid is not so disruptive as i was by default, then maybe he should not be considered in the same way i was with respect to placement within whatever systems are available.

yeah the pies were great.



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24 Jun 2017, 4:13 am

will@rd wrote:
However poorly she may have expressed herself, or for whatever reasons, she isn't wrong.

I would have fared much better academically all through school, in separate classes and without the pressure of having to learn in the same way and at the same pace as the NT students. In many ways, I was several levels ahead of my peer group, because I read so much on my own, and having to study along with the NTS was excruciatingly tedious, as I already knew what they were struggling to learn for the first time. OTOH, in some subjects, like math, I struggled, not because I couldn't comprehend the subject, but because the methods of teaching NTs absolutely did not penetrate my Aspergian sense of logic.

So I agree wholeheartedly that autistic students should be separated into special classes and receive specialized curricula, designed for their alternate educational needs. The political reasons for it are ultimately irrelevant, it's a win-win for everyone.


IMHO this should be a decision decided on a case by case basis with the idea of mainstreaming as much as possible. When the autistic kids become adults they are going to have to deal with the neurotypical world. Even if you have a perfect autistic setup, your own online business somewhere miles from civilization you got to be able to know the NT world in order to sell your product. Nothing beats experience painful as it often is. And that goes the other way also for NT's bieng exposed to autistics.

We are in a totally different era then when we went to school. The technology today can if used right allow each kid to learn the same material in their own way.

History shows deliberate segregation at best is a temporary band aid and often ends horrifically. The last time autistics were seperated in America it was not good. The only reason we were not institutionlized is because they did not know we were autistic. I came pretty damm close. My school threw me out after second grade because the system the Senator wanted was in place in 1965 and they had no clue what to do with me. Public schools did not have to take "mental cripples" or were legally required not to take them. I got lucky due to in my opinion privilage. My public school said homeschool him or send him to a private school. A private school was found for me and my school took me back for fifth grade. I am convinced if my parents were not teachers I would have been warehoused and I would not be alive or if still alive incapable of posting here.

Segration would be done with good intentions, "this time we give them the money and resources (which would probably be ABA) they need" everybody would promise. Time would pass, priorities would change, resources would get short and the autistic kids would be out of site, out of mind


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24 Jun 2017, 4:24 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
will@rd wrote:
However poorly she may have expressed herself, or for whatever reasons, she isn't wrong.

I would have fared much better academically all through school, in separate classes and without the pressure of having to learn in the same way and at the same pace as the NT students. In many ways, I was several levels ahead of my peer group, because I read so much on my own, and having to study along with the NTS was excruciatingly tedious, as I already knew what they were struggling to learn for the first time. OTOH, in some subjects, like math, I struggled, not because I couldn't comprehend the subject, but because the methods of teaching NTs absolutely did not penetrate my Aspergian sense of logic.

So I agree wholeheartedly that autistic students should be separated into special classes and receive specialized curricula, designed for their alternate educational needs. The political reasons for it are ultimately irrelevant, it's a win-win for everyone.


IMHO this should be a decision decided on a case by case basis with the idea of mainstreaming as much as possible. When the autistic kids become adults they are going to have to deal with the neurotypical world. Even if you have a perfect autistic setup, your own online business somewhere miles from civilization you got to be able to know the NT world in order to sell your product. Nothing beats experience painful as it often is. And that goes the other way also for NT's bieng exposed to autistics.

We are in a totally different era then when we went to school. The technology today can if used right allow each kid to learn the same material in their own way.

History shows deliberate segregation at best is a temporary band aid and often ends horrifically. The last time autistics were seperated in America it was not good. The only reason we were not institutionlized is because they did not know we were autistic. I came pretty damm close. My school threw me out after second grade because the system the Senator wanted was in place in 1965 and they had no clue what to do with me. Public schools did not have to take "mental cripples" or were legally required not to take them. I got lucky due to in my opinion privilage. My public school said homeschool him or send him to a private school. A private school was found for me and my school took me back for fifth grade. I am convinced if my parents were not teachers I would have been warehoused and I would not be alive or if still alive incapable of posting here.

Segration would be done with good intentions, "this time we give them the money and resources (which would probably be ABA) they need" everybody would promise. Time would pass, priorities would change, resources would get short and the autistic kids would be out of site, out of mind



yes that was either an insufficiently considered, or a lazily worded post.



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25 Jun 2017, 6:59 am

Shahunshah wrote:
f*****g idiot.


Settle petal...

I don't have all the facts but hope to have most of them after this discussion and further research...
I know that she was taken out of context on at least one occassion...

Remember, these are politicians and they play hard an dirty on both sides of the political divide, but perhaps more so on the left...
This also can be said about some of the media in Australia...

I am not a supporter of Pauline Hanson...
I am a supporter of the truth...

I live in Australia...
I am fairly politically aware...
I'm not talking out of my bum...ewww :mrgreen:

Pauline isn't a great orator or intellect and should put more thought into what she says...
It was stupid for her to emphasis the problems caused by the more profoundly autistic...
But I personally think autistic individuals, the entire autistic spectrum, should embrace their/our autistic heritage and not be corrupted into trying to be something we are not...

Personally, If I had my time over again, I would have preferred to firstly, be aware of my autism at an early age and secondly, educated about autistic differences (strengths and weaknesses) in conjunction with interaction with other autistic individuals...

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!
Let the hate slagging begin...err...continue! :mrgreen:

TheRedPedant93 wrote:

Either she is pig ignorant as many public citizens are still about the nature of the ASD continuum (they'll always will be); or to imply something more sinister, that she is repressing her discontent (and abhorrence) towards aspies and high functioning autistics for the fear and likelihood of witnessing creativity, talent, and cognitive/intellectual abilities from them that would surpass that of the NT students in the class that they attend to.


I like your esprit de corps, but I think you may be giving her too much credit...
I think you may be giving NTs in general too much credit...since NTs (or anyone) can creatively redefine reality to suit their own emotional needs...
Most people would rather dissociate themselves from reality than to face some inconvenient truths which may crimp their ego...

Yes, as a group we have greater intellectual abilities than most NTs...I.E. we are above average in *intellectual* abilities/intelligence...
But our autistic social clumsiness, "computing lag", lack of theory of mind, etc, allows many, if not most, NTs to dismiss our abilities...
Google: “The corruption of reality” by John F. Schumaker, if you haven't done so or/and you have the mental energy to see where I am coming from...

In summary, I think...no, I know...she is "pig ignorant" on this subject, like many...

She was also involved in the "vaccine causes autism" kerfuffle... :roll:
When will she learn to do proper research...<sigh>
Perhaps she is emulating her pin-up boy, Donald Trump... ;)

Having said that, she is basically a decent human being...



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25 Jun 2017, 7:56 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:

“We need to get rid of those people because you want everyone to feel good about themselves.”


'those' in reference to autistic kids?

That said that bit is pretty offensive, there are plenty of kids with autism that are ahead in some areas, whilst behind in others. I would have done horribly if I had constantly been put in special classes, whereas I think perhaps sometimes I could have used a little more support...but just shuffling them all into special classes is no solution. They need case by case plans for autistic students.


No...
That is what I was referring to in my first post...
She was taken out of context...

On the Andrew Bolt show she clarified that she was actually referring to the "do gooders", I believe...
I can verify it by finding that pod cast, if you wish...

This may or may not have been a case of deliberate misinformation by the left...
There is so much truth sodomy in politics...



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28 Jun 2017, 7:13 pm

Pepe wrote:
Having said that, she is basically a decent human being...


You can call her (Hanson) a number of things but decent isn't one. Lack of education doesn't give her a free pass - she is also highly unrefined/uncouth and espouses prejudice against a number of different vulnerable groups who she lumps into "one size fits all" categories. She is simply espousing fringe right wing values and has a simplistic view that one can solve national problems by blaming minority groups for getting too many benefits at the expense of (what she thinks are) real aussies

Her deplorable conduct in stealing money has sent to jail in the past. She is many things but decent is not one...



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28 Jun 2017, 9:49 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Having said that, she is basically a decent human being...


You can call her (Hanson) a number of things but decent isn't one. Lack of education doesn't give her a free pass - she is also highly unrefined/uncouth and espouses prejudice against a number of different vulnerable groups who she lumps into "one size fits all" categories. She is simply espousing fringe right wing values and has a simplistic view that one can solve national problems by blaming minority groups for getting too many benefits at the expense of (what she thinks are) real aussies

Her deplorable conduct in stealing money has sent to jail in the past. She is many things but decent is not one...


There is nothing in your profile to suggest where you are from...
Do you live in Australia?
Also, could you confirm whether or not you are on the autistic spectrum?

I am an aspie...
I am an Australian...
I have had an interest in Australian politics since the 70s...
BTW...
I am very goodly... ;)

Regarding:"Her deplorable conduct in stealing money has sent to jail in the past. She is many things but decent is not one..."
Are you aware of this:" A Brisbane District Court jury found Hanson guilty of electoral fraud in 2003 though the convictions were later overturned by three judges on the Queensland Court of Appeal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Hanson

I lived through that political upheaval...
There were numerous nuances in regards to what happened including:
- Political intrigue...
- Personal naivety...
- Scapegoat-ism...
- Manipulation...

I agree:"Lack of education doesn't give her a free pass "...
Her naivety and lack of intellectual prowess has caused her many problems, that is true...
11 weeks in prison for something she was later acquitted for is hardly a "get out of gaol/jail free card", imo...
The left, and often the right, constantly attacks her because she is such an easy target and deflects attention away from them...
Not sure why you brought up this "free pass" thing...
She definitely needs one to have some respite from the political jackals! 8O

You said:"she is also highly unrefined/uncouth and espouses prejudice against a number of different vulnerable groups who she lumps into "one size fits all" categories."...
I agree she is rough around the edges...
I would like to point out that some of these "vulnerable groups" have an inordinate amount of political power to the point of political correctness stifling free speech...

You said:"She is simply espousing fringe right wing values and has a simplistic view that one can solve national problems by blaming minority groups for getting too many benefits at the expense of (what she thinks are) real aussies..."
Could you name some?

Are you aware that in many places across the world, if you don't comply to sovereign edicts, you are lawfully persecuted?
I have no problem with Australia being egalitarian, but if our generosity is being abused, that is hardly acceptable...surely...

Are you aware that 80 cents in every tax payer dollar here in Australia is spent on some form of welfare...
...while the number of those who pay tax, by proportion of the population, is dwindling?

Once again, I am not a Pauline supporter...
I am a supporter of the truth...

Politics is a dirty, dirty, did I say "dirty"? business... 8O
Don't believe everything you read/hear in the media...
That's an order... ;)