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C2V
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10 Jul 2017, 4:19 am

I'm confused by this.
As anyone who reads at the LGBT section especially here knows, I'm trans and androgynous. Depending on my context and my presentation, I am read as both man and woman.
Though I can often tell from terms used to describe me ("ladies" including me when femme and with women, or "buddy" when I am alone looking masucline are dead giveaways, but there are more subtle terms too) which way someone is interpreting my often confusing appearance, I really don't see where this "male privilege" comes in.
I don't see myself as being treated as drastically different simply on the basis of being a man than as a woman.
When I look this opinion up online the examples are silly and incorrect - I have known plenty of women who behave in ways that the articles claim would get criticized using male privilege, and some of the evidence sited there goes directly against my own experiences. Some items they claim would not be used against men based on male privilege have been used against me when read as one.
I considered that maybe this doesn't apply to me, because I'm queer and autistic, and thus, perhaps I don't benefit from male privilege even when interpreted as male. Maybe it's only neurotypical, cis heteronormative men who have this privilege?
And I know that much of the ways in which these articles claim women are treated by men, I have never treated a woman that way before (supposing she views me as a man, and nor would I even if she did) and half of these things have not even occurred to me.
As genderqueer and bisexual it's difficult for me not to be genderblind. I treat women as people, I treat men as people, I don't tend to differentiate well. I fail at applying male privilege to women :wink: I probably fail at recognizing it applying, or not applying, to me.
So. Many of you reading are likely women - how does this concept operate in your own life? Does it? What are some examples of how this has been applied to you? Do you think all men experience and exercise male privilege, consciously or unconsciously, or just a certain category of men? Do you think this still exists in western lands, or has freedom of expression practically broken down these boundaries?
If you're men reading - have you experienced this, pro or con? Noticed it at work for you, or women you know? Do you see this as a real thing?
What gives?


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This_Amoeba
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11 Jul 2017, 6:52 pm

It's a male privilege to be able to go places without being constantly sexually harassed and worried about being raped or impregnated. Genetic females are easily overpowered by genetic men. Even if I'm dressed androgynous, I still get harrased because of my hips, titties, and bone structure. They can still tell I'm female, so try to exert dominance upon me.

And don't even tell me that it's not true because "one time I saw I female sexually harass a male." What we deal with shouldn't be swept under the rug because of a few isolated incidences when this is something we deal with even before we reach puberty.

Before I reached puberty I was sexually assaulted on numerous occasions. I've been stalked for rejecting men advances and feared for my safety. l fear for my safety every time I go out.



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11 Jul 2017, 8:56 pm

C2V wrote:
I'm confused by this.
As anyone who reads at the LGBT section especially here knows, I'm trans and androgynous. Depending on my context and my presentation, I am read as both man and woman.
Though I can often tell from terms used to describe me ("ladies" including me when femme and with women, or "buddy" when I am alone looking masucline are dead giveaways, but there are more subtle terms too) which way someone is interpreting my often confusing appearance, I really don't see where this "male privilege" comes in.
I don't see myself as being treated as drastically different simply on the basis of being a man than as a woman.
When I look this opinion up online the examples are silly and incorrect - I have known plenty of women who behave in ways that the articles claim would get criticized using male privilege, and some of the evidence sited there goes directly against my own experiences. Some items they claim would not be used against men based on male privilege have been used against me when read as one.
I considered that maybe this doesn't apply to me, because I'm queer and autistic, and thus, perhaps I don't benefit from male privilege even when interpreted as male. Maybe it's only neurotypical, cis heteronormative men who have this privilege?
And I know that much of the ways in which these articles claim women are treated by men, I have never treated a woman that way before (supposing she views me as a man, and nor would I even if she did) and half of these things have not even occurred to me.
As genderqueer and bisexual it's difficult for me not to be genderblind. I treat women as people, I treat men as people, I don't tend to differentiate well. I fail at applying male privilege to women :wink: I probably fail at recognizing it applying, or not applying, to me.
So. Many of you reading are likely women - how does this concept operate in your own life? Does it? What are some examples of how this has been applied to you? Do you think all men experience and exercise male privilege, consciously or unconsciously, or just a certain category of men? Do you think this still exists in western lands, or has freedom of expression practically broken down these boundaries?
If you're men reading - have you experienced this, pro or con? Noticed it at work for you, or women you know? Do you see this as a real thing?
What gives?


Personally I've always thought the world "privilege" when talking about these things, is a poor choice. I think "advantage" is a far better word, because I think it's more relateable. When I first heard the term "white privilege" and all of the talk about it, I was economically disadvantaged and of course on the spectrum, and had other extenuating circumstances, and my reaction to the term was "How am I privileged when I'm impoverished and have so many things stacked against me in life?" But the more I thought about it and educated myself on racism in the United States, and listened to experiences of racial minorities, and became more aware of racism in my community, I conceded that by virtue of being white appearing, I did have some advantages over racial minorities, particularly African Americans.

In my particular community, having the advantage of passing as white, I've never been subjected to race based hostilities like some of the African American members of my community have. I've never woken up to find a cross burning on my lawn, as one black family did, and I've never been turned down from a job at a local business for being the wrong race...I know as a fact that some business owners in my home community were racist based on comments they had made about black people.

As a white passing female, I have the advantage of not being viewed as a significant threat by the police and have never been stopped by them and questioned over trivial things, but I know this routinely happens to black people, particularly in white neighborhoods. The odds that I will be shot by the police while reaching for my wallet at a traffic stop are exceedingly low.

I could go on, but let's talk more about female privilege or advantage.

As a female, it's not difficult for me to get sex if I desired it. There will always be a man out there who would have sex with me.

As a female, I have the advantage of being the recipient of more micro civilities.

As another member pointed out in a different post, as a female, I have the advantage of being able to work with and interact with children without being suspected of being a pedophile. Recently, a man who was helping a lost small child find her family, was mistaken for kidnapping the child, and beaten by the child's father and his friends.

As a female, I have more interesting clothing options than a man, and I can cross dress without it being considered a pathological psychological disorder, or without being bullied about it.

Some men fear making females cry. I have the advantage of them being nice to me even when I irritate them.

I'm sure there's more, but now lets talk about male privilege or advantage.

I've been on the internet since it's infancy, and it used to be very male dominated. I learned early on that when I presented as female, I received significantly more harassment and disrespect than when I was assumed to be male. When posting under accounts that were assumed to be male, my posts were taken at face value and I never received unsolicited messages of sexual nature, however when posting under accounts that made clear that I was female, my posts were subjected to significantly more criticism than the posts of other users, who were male or assumed to be male. The actual accuracy of my posts and my actual credentials ceased to matter. I also received a number of unsolicited "d!ck picks". The only way to remedy this was to use accounts that were assumed to be male, or check that I was male in profiles. Males had the advantage, or privilege of having their word taken more at face value, even when they were incorrect, and of not being sexually harassed. I'll just come right out and say it. If I didn't want to be impeded by BS, I had to present as a male.

While most males are not CEOs or successful start up founders, and never will be, compared to females, males have an easier time obtaining funding for their ideas. There are numerous studies that have confirmed this phenomena, and it has to do with perceptions of what is normal, standard, and familiar.

Males have the advantage of more freedom of movement. As another poster pointed out, males do not have to worry about being sexually assaulted or sexually harassed to anywhere near the same extent that females do. Have you ever heard of a man being dragged in to the bushes and raped or sexually assaulted while on an evening jog in the park? I haven't. But this happens to women at least a few times per year.

Males have the advantage of not having to be particularly warm, emotionally intuitive, or empathetic, and males also have the advantage of more comfortable clothing options...I realize this is fairly subjective but one of the things that caused me a lot of anxiety about working in offices when I was younger was the extreme discomfort of female business clothes. Most offices here don't require ties or jackets, and so men could put on a button up shirt, trousers (with pockets!), even jeans, and comfortable shoes and that was acceptable, but women's clothing is itchy bras, dress shoes that aren't actually made in any functional manner, and don't stay on the feet, clothing that has to be layered just so, or is too low cut, or pants that don't have pockets. Males have the advantage of looking socially acceptable provided their hair is kept neat, but women are expected to shave, and look aesthetically pleasing. It's not a requirement of course, but one could be subjected to a fair degree of social ridicule and unpleasantries if one does not conform to social expectations of dress and looks. Or at the very least, be devalued for it.

Males have the advantage of being physically stronger. This gives men a wider scope of potential job opportunities that many women just don't have the physical strength for, and men have the advantage of not having to worry as much about on the job sexual assaults.

There's more of course. There's more in all of these categories because there is white privilege, black privilege, male privilege, female privilege, etc, etc, etc.

Just about every demographic has some sort of privilege or advantage over another. But those advantages do not guarantee happiness, or prosperity, or success, or that a person's life will be free of suffering and adversity. Privileges conveyed by virtue of being a member of a particular demographic do not negate an individual's own difficulties in life.



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12 Jul 2017, 12:15 pm

what i notice is the most pervasive exercise of "male privilege" is being unaware or somehow misinformed about female issues while simultaneously confident in the grasp of those issues. i don't think all men exercise "male privilege" and certainly not at all times, and i think too that even men with good intentions and reasoning skills still fall into it from time to time. like a man who says "rape culture" doesn't exist because raping is bad and everyone knows not to rape, and not very many people are actually raped/not very many people are actually rapists, and the term "rape culture" has been fabricated by western feminists because they are running out of things to complain about (instead of focusing on real female issues in _insert a muslim country here_). all of this, while very obviously not knowing the definition of "rape culture" and plus the stats involved in incidents of rape and the prosecution of rape charges. it's not that i think anyone who thinks this about "rape culture" is a bad person or a rapist or anything (although i'd probably be accused of it), just that they haven't thought about this information, likely because they have the advantage of not having to think about it.

"male privilege" isn't any different from other privileges, like chronos says. but i think where people start getting defensive is where i draw the line between passive "privilege" and active "oppression". everyone has some advantages and some disadvantages and it's not necessarily that someone is a bad person if they express their privilege now and again. nobody is perfect and i don't expect anyone to know what they don't know yet, myself included. i think there is a problem lately with some people trying so adamantly to push the idea of a perfect social conscience and it comes off as overbearing, and then of course, there is the equal opposite of some people taking offense to feeling like they are being forced to have a perfect social conscience. but this s**tshow is distracting at best and dividing at worst. no one can just strip themselves of their advantages and disadvantages but we can all try to listen to other people and think about other perspectives as we are exposed to them. in my experience that is not as easy as maybe it could be.



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12 Jul 2017, 1:31 pm

First you were confused by females using phallic shaped dildo and now you're confused by women feeling underprivileged. Why do you care? Do you actually want to know or are you just trolling/harrassing?



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12 Jul 2017, 2:52 pm

C2V wrote:
I'm confused by this.
As anyone who reads at the LGBT section especially here knows, I'm trans and androgynous. Depending on my context and my presentation, I am read as both man and woman.
Though I can often tell from terms used to describe me ("ladies" including me when femme and with women, or "buddy" when I am alone looking masucline are dead giveaways, but there are more subtle terms too) which way someone is interpreting my often confusing appearance, I really don't see where this "male privilege" comes in.
I don't see myself as being treated as drastically different simply on the basis of being a man than as a woman.
When I look this opinion up online the examples are silly and incorrect - I have known plenty of women who behave in ways that the articles claim would get criticized using male privilege, and some of the evidence sited there goes directly against my own experiences. Some items they claim would not be used against men based on male privilege have been used against me when read as one.
I considered that maybe this doesn't apply to me, because I'm queer and autistic, and thus, perhaps I don't benefit from male privilege even when interpreted as male. Maybe it's only neurotypical, cis heteronormative men who have this privilege?
And I know that much of the ways in which these articles claim women are treated by men, I have never treated a woman that way before (supposing she views me as a man, and nor would I even if she did) and half of these things have not even occurred to me.
As genderqueer and bisexual it's difficult for me not to be genderblind. I treat women as people, I treat men as people, I don't tend to differentiate well. I fail at applying male privilege to women :wink: I probably fail at recognizing it applying, or not applying, to me.
So. Many of you reading are likely women - how does this concept operate in your own life? Does it? What are some examples of how this has been applied to you? Do you think all men experience and exercise male privilege, consciously or unconsciously, or just a certain category of men? Do you think this still exists in western lands, or has freedom of expression practically broken down these boundaries?
If you're men reading - have you experienced this, pro or con? Noticed it at work for you, or women you know? Do you see this as a real thing?
What gives?


I don’t see male privilege, rather like Chronos said I see advantages and disadvantages to being born male or female.
The privilege piece confuses me, it seems to take a crude stereotype and applies it to everyone. I think it promotes a paralysed victimhood mindset when you consider all the different ways a person can be underprivileged, it needs to be more solution focused. Fairness or equality is a great concept, but it competes with conflicting economical and cultural realities.

When a woman takes time away from her career to raise children it is a commonly accepted part of being a mother, if she is unable to climb the ladder in her job as a result of long absences from work, that is a consequence of her lifestyle choice. If she lives in a country that places little value on maternity/parental leave, then her disadvantaged career prospects are a result of that cultures value system.

If a society facilitates fathers to take parental leave, then they would experience the same career consequences as mothers, but as they generally aren’t facilitated equally, we usually see the outcome for the mother.
It would be great if people who focused on male privilege channeled their energies into effecting tangible change, like campaigning for equal parental leave.



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12 Jul 2017, 3:17 pm

campaigning is good but slow.
who wants to make a bet on which will come first? equal paternity leave or male birth control?

i have my bet on male birth control.



Amity
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12 Jul 2017, 3:25 pm

seaweed wrote:
campaigning is good but slow.
who wants to make a bet on which will come first? equal paternity leave or male birth control?

i have my bet on male birth control.


Ahh yes, male birth control is another pharmaceutical goldmine.



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12 Jul 2017, 9:19 pm

I live in the Bible Belt and if you ask most of the women what they think about "male privilege" and if they feel it is unfair, the usual response is something like "Men are supposed to be in charge!" as if they feel like women are supposed to be quiet and subservient. The woman who I get haircuts from even once told me when the 2016 presidential election was rolling around she didn't want a female president. Another girl said she was glad Trump won because he has "Christian values" and was a man. :? Is this just a Bible Belt thing or does it happen elsewhere?

I think the Bible Belt culture should be considered textbook material because it oppresses both genders in various ways. Women are expected to be silent as well as subservient and feel like they are only good for household activities as well as shopping for clothes. Men are expected to be emotionless robots who can take anything even at the cost of their lives.



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13 Jul 2017, 12:33 am

Marknis wrote:
I live in the Bible Belt and if you ask most of the women what they think about "male privilege" and if they feel it is unfair, the usual response is something like "Men are supposed to be in charge!" as if they feel like women are supposed to be quiet and subservient. The woman who I get haircuts from even once told me when the 2016 presidential election was rolling around she didn't want a female president. Another girl said she was glad Trump won because he has "Christian values" and was a man. :? Is this just a Bible Belt thing or does it happen elsewhere?

I think the Bible Belt culture should be considered textbook material because it oppresses both genders in various ways. Women are expected to be silent as well as subservient and feel like they are only good for household activities as well as shopping for clothes. Men are expected to be emotionless robots who can take anything even at the cost of their lives.


What Christian values to they claim Trump possess exactly?



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13 Jul 2017, 1:31 am

Chronos wrote:
Marknis wrote:
I live in the Bible Belt and if you ask most of the women what they think about "male privilege" and if they feel it is unfair, the usual response is something like "Men are supposed to be in charge!" as if they feel like women are supposed to be quiet and subservient. The woman who I get haircuts from even once told me when the 2016 presidential election was rolling around she didn't want a female president. Another girl said she was glad Trump won because he has "Christian values" and was a man. :? Is this just a Bible Belt thing or does it happen elsewhere?

I think the Bible Belt culture should be considered textbook material because it oppresses both genders in various ways. Women are expected to be silent as well as subservient and feel like they are only good for household activities as well as shopping for clothes. Men are expected to be emotionless robots who can take anything even at the cost of their lives.


What Christian values to they claim Trump possess exactly?


I've never really asked how he should be considered an example of someone with "Christian values". It honestly boggles my mind. I suppose I could ask if I hear it again. The one who didn't want a female president said that women argue too much or atleast that is how I remember it. :? Doesn't that sound like something Phyllis Schlafly would say?

I don't even understand why the rednecks supported him because they usually hate New York as well as New Yorkers. They do think being the president is by default a "man's job". :roll:



C2V
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13 Jul 2017, 3:59 am

Quote:
It's a male privilege to be able to go places without being constantly sexually harassed and worried about being raped or impregnated. Genetic females are easily overpowered by genetic men. Even if I'm dressed androgynous, I still get harrased because of my hips, titties, and bone structure. They can still tell I'm female, so try to exert dominance upon me.

And don't even tell me that it's not true because "one time I saw I female sexually harass a male." What we deal with shouldn't be swept under the rug because of a few isolated incidences when this is something we deal with even before we reach puberty.

And the same person later on -
Quote:
First you were confused by females using phallic shaped dildo and now you're confused by women feeling underprivileged. Why do you care? Do you actually want to know or are you just trolling/harrassing?

Can I just write something for a minute without you claiming I'm harassing you or judging you or whatever else you have claimed elsewhere? I am not meaning to be offensive, I am not judging you for your choices, I am not even claiming that male privilege is not real or does not affect women with this post.
Can you please stop being so defensive and getting angry about every question I ask. I am not attacking you. How is asking a question and inviting responses harassing? With the dildo thing, that was honestly the information I had been given by many women that I knew. I never wrote there that there was anything wrong with liking, or using, a phallic shaped dildo. It was also based on the whole idea that the only "mature" orgasm was a vaginal one requiring penetration, when the women I had known and many that I had known of said it was more clitoral and it struck me as being sexist anyway.
I also haven't experienced what you're referencing above. I have gone out by myself, at night, in many cities considered unsafe for women presenting as a woman and never been sexually harassed by men. I was not worried about being raped. So I have no direct experience of this happening so I was asking questions about how women experience this. If I were out at night in the same place presenting as male, it would never occur to me to force anything on a woman. Again, no direct experience. I ask these sorts of questions precisely because I don't want women's issues just "swept under the rug." I do want to know people's perspectives on these things. And keep in mind that I am perceived and treated as a woman some of the time.
Quote:
Personally I've always thought the world "privilege" when talking about these things, is a poor choice. I think "advantage" is a far better word, because I think it's more relateable. When I first heard the term "white privilege" and all of the talk about it, I was economically disadvantaged and of course on the spectrum, and had other extenuating circumstances, and my reaction to the term was "How am I privileged when I'm impoverished and have so many things stacked against me in life?" But the more I thought about it and educated myself on racism in the United States, and listened to experiences of racial minorities, and became more aware of racism in my community, I conceded that by virtue of being white appearing, I did have some advantages over racial minorities, particularly African Americans.

That's a good way to think about it, which does get through the misleading ideas around "male privilege," which makes it seem as if the idea is suggesting men have it all their own way, and distinctly over women, all the time, when that isn't the case. That's partly why I was interested in other people's experiences. So I could be more aware of these kinds of examples that I was perhaps unaware of before. To see it as an advantage in certain circumstances is much clearer.
Quote:
what i notice is the most pervasive exercise of "male privilege" is being unaware or somehow misinformed about female issues while simultaneously confident in the grasp of those issues. i don't think all men exercise "male privilege" and certainly not at all times, and i think too that even men with good intentions and reasoning skills still fall into it from time to time.

Exactly. Hence questions like this one. As noted I do have some experience of how women can be treated as I am sometimes treated as one, and I hadn't encountered any of these set standards of male privilege - or if I have, it's gone over my head. Being aware and sensible of these issues stops you being the a***hole who thinks they know all about these things, when they're clueless.
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"male privilege" isn't any different from other privileges, like chronos says. but i think where people start getting defensive is where i draw the line between passive "privilege" and active "oppression".

Could you expound on that a bit?
Quote:
I don’t see male privilege, rather like Chronos said I see advantages and disadvantages to being born male or female.
The privilege piece confuses me, it seems to take a crude stereotype and applies it to everyone.

That was closer to my own perspective and why I think this blanket "male privilege" confuses me and seems incorrect.
Quote:
i have my bet on male birth control.

Vasectomy. :wink:
Quote:
I live in the Bible Belt and if you ask most of the women what they think about "male privilege" and if they feel it is unfair, the usual response is something like "Men are supposed to be in charge!" as if they feel like women are supposed to be quiet and subservient. The woman who I get haircuts from even once told me when the 2016 presidential election was rolling around she didn't want a female president. Another girl said she was glad Trump won because he has "Christian values" and was a man. :? Is this just a Bible Belt thing or does it happen elsewhere?

I think the Bible Belt culture should be considered textbook material because it oppresses both genders in various ways. Women are expected to be silent as well as subservient and feel like they are only good for household activities as well as shopping for clothes. Men are expected to be emotionless robots who can take anything even at the cost of their lives.

Mm, see I don't agree with that perspective at all, that "men should be in charge" and women should be subservient and silent. It's just ... not what I believe. To avoid offending anyone else, I'll leave that there. And I agree that this gendered idea of a male privilege seems to reinforce the pigeonholes which hurts everyone.


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Marknis
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13 Jul 2017, 10:31 am

C2V wrote:
Mm, see I don't agree with that perspective at all, that "men should be in charge" and women should be subservient and silent. It's just ... not what I believe. To avoid offending anyone else, I'll leave that there. And I agree that this gendered idea of a male privilege seems to reinforce the pigeonholes which hurts everyone.


I certainly don't believe in it either. Sadly, a lot of the women in the Bible Belt culture have bought into that outlook. It just goes to show how powerful societal brainwashing can be.

But being a male in the Bible Belt does not guarantee you will have an easy life. I can attest to that on so many levels. Men here are expected to suppress their emotions and take all sorts of abuse if they want to get a job as well as get a promotion. I have never been promoted at my job because I am not aggressive and I can only tolerate so much stress until it ruins me which I have been derided as being a "loser" or "baby" for. Most of the social hangouts here are churches, dive bars, and sports venues. I am not religious because the prevailing religious attitude here is more about hoping you are on the winning side instead of actually trying to be like Jesus, I don't smoke or drink (Atleast not daily), and I care nothing for handegg which is the favorite sport here so I am the odd man out in terms of the social scene here. I am considered "weeurd" for liking heavy metal instead of pop country, reading sci-fi novels and learning about history instead of watching celebrity drama or Fox News, and I drive safely instead of trying to turn the streets into a racing course. I have been threatened verbally as well as physically if I've told someone "No" if they want money or a ride in my car or to use my cellphone or to get out of paying a library fine. If I don't fight back (I have weak muscles so it's hard for me to protect myself) or run away, I get called a "weakling" or a "p****". I am also considered undateable because I still live with my mother at my age and the same women who want a man to always lead consider a non-Christian man an instant deal breaker, even if they are open to pre-marital sex.



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15 Jul 2017, 8:22 am

C2V wrote:
Could you expound on that a bit?

i think "privilege" as a concept that can be exercised by an individual depends on being inside the context of a societal structure. it exists only because it's been built but it's been built and so it exists, and individual renovations can lead to larger scale ones but idealizing outside of it in individualistic terms doesn't change the fact that it still exists in this space of constructed reality at this time. people get particularly defensive and crude over male vs. female advantage and that's probably because it applies to everyone, even non-binary people.

Quote:
Quote:
i have my bet on male birth control.

Vasectomy. :wink:

vasectomies are still too drastic for the average young guy to consider, whereas pills, implants, shots, patches, and intrauterine devices are common for young women to consider.



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15 Jul 2017, 11:35 pm

seaweed wrote:
C2V wrote:
Could you expound on that a bit?

i think "privilege" as a concept that can be exercised by an individual depends on being inside the context of a societal structure. it exists only because it's been built but it's been built and so it exists, and individual renovations can lead to larger scale ones but idealizing outside of it in individualistic terms doesn't change the fact that it still exists in this space of constructed reality at this time. people get particularly defensive and crude over male vs. female advantage and that's probably because it applies to everyone, even non-binary people.

Quote:
Quote:
i have my bet on male birth control.

Vasectomy. :wink:

vasectomies are still too drastic for the average young guy to consider, whereas pills, implants, shots, patches, and intrauterine devices are common for young women to consider.


Vasectomies, like tubal litigation, can be difficult or impossible to reverse. The concept of a male birth control pill is in the works but probably won't hit the market for at least 15 to 20 years. If there existed a compound now that will stop sperm production without any ill effects, it would still take 15 years for FDA approval.



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16 Jul 2017, 6:03 am

Some men think it's their job and their right to take care of certain things and that women just shouldn't. It's so stupid and insulting. I also see a lot of white cisgender straight English-speaking Christian adult able-bodied Republican neurotypical privilege on ZeroHedge and InfoWars and such. It's a good thing I'm starting to take them with a grain of salt now... it took their hatred for many groups for me to realize they weren't always telling the truth.