Page 1 of 2 [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,497
Location: America

13 Jul 2017, 7:16 am

How can two nations be adversaries if neither leader views the other as an adversary?

It seems clear, no matter how badly some want It, that Putin doesn't want to be enemies with Trump and Trump doesn't want to be enemies with Putin.

Isn't it the President who decides who we go to war with or not?

Has there ever been a time in history that two countries were enemies when both leaders got along well with each other?


_________________
Level 2 moderate/severe nonverbal autism.


Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,088
Location: USA

13 Jul 2017, 10:27 am

EzraS wrote:
How can two nations be adversaries if neither leader views the other as an adversary?

It seems clear, no matter how badly some want It, that Putin doesn't want to be enemies with Trump and Trump doesn't want to be enemies with Putin.

Isn't it the President who decides who we go to war with or not?

Has there ever been a time in history that two countries were enemies when both leaders got along well with each other?

Only congress can declare war in the U.S., the president can send troops into military action but he can't declare war. There's theoretically a 60 day window for congress to declare war or not (War Powers Act, 1973), but since the Iraq invasion the status quo views no action by congress as implicit approval.

As for leaders and how much latitude they have to deal with other nations, that's dependent on what the population will allow. Leaders that ignore the wishes of the populace become unpopular, and unpopular leaders get deposed.

As for Trump's specific situation with Putin, he has almost no leeway. The most he can do as president is reach an agreement on military affairs as commander in chief. Basically if he wants to ally with Russia in Syria and commit U.S. troops to working with Russian troops that's well within his authority. That will never happen because Russia will want something more in return, either an easing of sanctions, a recognition of their claim in Crimea, etc. Those would all require treaties, and any treaty must pass both houses of congress to become law.

The presidency is not a dictatorship or a monarchy, it has very clear and limited powers: the power to oversee the military and other administrative branches, the power to veto legislation by the congress, and the ability to officially negotiate with other nations (but again congress gets right of approval on any treaties from said negotiations). When looking at it's constitutional authority, the presidency is actually very weak compared to congress and the courts and it was intended to be that way because of the paranoia the early Americans had of monarchy. Most modern U.S. presidents have leveraged their popularity ('the bully pulpit') to pressure congress into moving on legislation they prefer, or changing public perception of a case to force the courts movements on the issue. Donald's popularity is not high enough to make those things happen, and his inability to work with the other two branches ensure they're not going to stick their necks out for him, and thus he's our first four year lame-duck president.



LoveNotHate
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,947
Location: Northern USA

13 Jul 2017, 10:41 am

We have long feared the influence of Socialist and Communist ideas.

They threaten the "land of the free".

Russia/China/Europe all represent a danger, because their ideas might corrupt impressionable minds.

The fear is that Trump's connection to Putin means he would actually implement some Socialist or Communist idea.



EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,497
Location: America

13 Jul 2017, 11:03 am

Aristophanes wrote:
EzraS wrote:
How can two nations be adversaries if neither leader views the other as an adversary?

It seems clear, no matter how badly some want It, that Putin doesn't want to be enemies with Trump and Trump doesn't want to be enemies with Putin.

Isn't it the President who decides who we go to war with or not?

Has there ever been a time in history that two countries were enemies when both leaders got along well with each other?

Only congress can declare war in the U.S., the president can send troops into military action but he can't declare war. There's theoretically a 60 day window for congress to declare war or not (War Powers Act, 1973), but since the Iraq invasion the status quo views no action by congress as implicit approval.

As for leaders and how much latitude they have to deal with other nations, that's dependent on what the population will allow. Leaders that ignore the wishes of the populace become unpopular, and unpopular leaders get deposed.

As for Trump's specific situation with Putin, he has almost no leeway. The most he can do as president is reach an agreement on military affairs as commander in chief. Basically if he wants to ally with Russia in Syria and commit U.S. troops to working with Russian troops that's well within his authority. That will never happen because Russia will want something more in return, either an easing of sanctions, a recognition of their claim in Crimea, etc. Those would all require treaties, and any treaty must pass both houses of congress to become law.

The presidency is not a dictatorship or a monarchy, it has very clear and limited powers: the power to oversee the military and other administrative branches, the power to veto legislation by the congress, and the ability to officially negotiate with other nations (but again congress gets right of approval on any treaties from said negotiations). When looking at it's constitutional authority, the presidency is actually very weak compared to congress and the courts and it was intended to be that way because of the paranoia the early Americans had of monarchy. Most modern U.S. presidents have leveraged their popularity ('the bully pulpit') to pressure congress into moving on legislation they prefer, or changing public perception of a case to force the courts movements on the issue. Donald's popularity is not high enough to make those things happen, and his inability to work with the other two branches ensure they're not going to stick their necks out for him, and thus he's our first four year lame-duck president.


Oh I must have taken all the msm talk about Trump starting a war too literally.

But again, has there been a time when two nations were arch enemy adversaries while at the same time the two leaders got along well with each other?


_________________
Level 2 moderate/severe nonverbal autism.


DarthMetaKnight
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,365
Location: Cosmic Horror Story

16 Jul 2017, 12:04 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
We have long feared the influence of Socialist and Communist ideas.

They threaten the "land of the free".

Russia/China/Europe all represent a danger, because their ideas might corrupt impressionable minds.

The fear is that Trump's connection to Putin means he would actually implement some Socialist or Communist idea.


Putin isn't a socialist of any sort. He's a far-right theocrat.


_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre

Exxon Mobil delenda est


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,101
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

16 Jul 2017, 3:18 pm

No, Putin doesn't want America as an enemy: he wants America to be his stooge, and his b*tch, staying out of his way while he expands Russian political and economic power. Unfortunately, Trump either seems just fine with that, or he's too dumb to realize that's Putin's plan.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


EzraS
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Sep 2013
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,497
Location: America

17 Jul 2017, 7:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
No, Putin doesn't want America as an enemy: he wants America to be his stooge, and his b*tch, staying out of his way while he expands Russian political and economic power. Unfortunately, Trump either seems just fine with that, or he's too dumb to realize that's Putin's plan.


Well I guess after nearly 20 years in power and turning 65 soon, it's about time he finally gets around to it. btw what leader doesn't want to expand their country politically and economically?


_________________
Level 2 moderate/severe nonverbal autism.


DarthMetaKnight
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,365
Location: Cosmic Horror Story

17 Jul 2017, 8:39 am

EzraS wrote:
Has there ever been a time in history that two countries were enemies when both leaders got along well with each other?


Saudi Arabia might actually be a good example of this.

Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. Most average Americans hate Saudi Arabia, and have good reasons to do so.

Despite this, most people in the American upper class suck up to Saudi Arabia because ... $$$$$$$$$$.


_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre

Exxon Mobil delenda est


kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 37,916
Location: Queens, NYC

17 Jul 2017, 9:17 am

They were Saudis who went counter to the mainstream Wahabbi beliefs.

It was NOT in the best interest of the Saudis to perform the 9/11 deeds. It affects their business interests.

Just like if an American stabbed a Frenchman, it shouldn't be assumed that America is against France.



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 37,916
Location: Queens, NYC

17 Jul 2017, 9:25 am

Putin and Trump might be lovey-dovey----but the interests of Russia and the United States are, in many ways, diametrically opposed to each other.

They were diametrically opposed, even more so than today, in the past.....even though they were allies against the Nazis during World War II.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Age: 51
Gender: Male
Posts: 33,101
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

17 Jul 2017, 2:34 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, Putin doesn't want America as an enemy: he wants America to be his stooge, and his b*tch, staying out of his way while he expands Russian political and economic power. Unfortunately, Trump either seems just fine with that, or he's too dumb to realize that's Putin's plan.


Well I guess after nearly 20 years in power and turning 65 soon, it's about time he finally gets around to it. btw what leader doesn't want to expand their country politically and economically?


That becomes a problem when that expansion is at our expense.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,925
Location: Long Island, New York

17 Jul 2017, 3:20 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
They were Saudis who went counter to the mainstream Wahabbi beliefs.

It was NOT in the best interest of the Saudis to perform the 9/11 deeds. It affects their business interests.

Just like if an American stabbed a Frenchman, it shouldn't be assumed that America is against France.


It was a payoff to prevent them from being attacked. They might not have done it directly but probably had a role in financing it, they have financed that whole ideology that is the scrouge of the world.


_________________
How can Autism be trendy and a popular insult at the same time?

Recovering from tongue cancer and suspected Ramsey Hunt Syndrome (Ear Shingles), somewhat verbal.
Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity


Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,373
Location: Victoria, Australia

18 Jul 2017, 12:04 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
We have long feared the influence of Socialist and Communist ideas.

They threaten the "land of the free".

Russia/China/Europe all represent a danger, because their ideas might corrupt impressionable minds.

The fear is that Trump's connection to Putin means he would actually implement some Socialist or Communist idea.


Oh for goodness sake, put the tin-foil hat back on. In case you had not noticed, neither Russia nor China is, from an economic perspective, either socialist or communist anymore. It's now 2017, not the mid-1980's. The Cold War is over. You don't have to "duck and cover" anymore.



Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,373
Location: Victoria, Australia

18 Jul 2017, 12:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
No, Putin doesn't want America as an enemy: he wants America to be his stooge, and his b*tch, staying out of his way while he expands Russian political and economic power. Unfortunately, Trump either seems just fine with that, or he's too dumb to realize that's Putin's plan.


The only "plan" that President Vladimir Putin seems to have is to keep his country independent and prosperous. The fact that this goes against the expansionist plans of the United States is just too bad for the U.S.A., because Russia will never be cowed into capitulating. Vladimir Putin may have his many faults (ex. his rather nasty habit of murdering journalists who oppose him), but at least he isn't a traitor like that fool Gorbachev was.



Lintar
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,373
Location: Victoria, Australia

18 Jul 2017, 12:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, Putin doesn't want America as an enemy: he wants America to be his stooge, and his b*tch, staying out of his way while he expands Russian political and economic power. Unfortunately, Trump either seems just fine with that, or he's too dumb to realize that's Putin's plan.


Well I guess after nearly 20 years in power and turning 65 soon, it's about time he finally gets around to it. btw what leader doesn't want to expand their country politically and economically?


That becomes a problem when that expansion is at our expense.


You mean like N.A.T.O. expansion?

http://pickelhering.blogspot.com.au/200 ... chive.html

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=NAT ... ORM=HDRSC2

Can anyone blame Russia for simply defending itself?!