Is there anyone on here who doesn't like progressivism?

Page 1 of 2 [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

K_Kelly
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2014
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,452

15 Jul 2017, 1:27 pm

Well, being fair, I will say that I don't really believe any law could or should "make" society or certain groups intolerant of discrimination on the basis of sexuality or other group factors. I don't fully subscribe to all those views either, but this is being said because, no matter how many laws the governments or society make to punish discrimination, people still discriminate because they simply want it to happen. I think I made that part clear.



jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

15 Jul 2017, 2:02 pm

The way people point out bigotry matters a lot. I think we mostly agree on that. I prefer to point out that a comment sounds racist, even though people often conflate it with calling them racists. I know the difference, and it means people have a lot more control over what they say than what they feel.


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


jrjones9933
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 May 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,144
Location: The end of the northwest passage

15 Jul 2017, 2:08 pm

If you want to see bad progressivism, look no further than Brown v. Board of Education. It doesn't say that black parents deserve control of their enrollment or local schools, but says black children suffer by being separated from white children. The decision resulted in desegregated classrooms with all white teachers, and the harm to black children still continues to this day.

Hat tip to Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History


_________________
"I find that the best way [to increase self-confidence] is to lie to yourself about who you are, what you've done, and where you're going." - Richard Ayoade


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,440
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

15 Jul 2017, 6:36 pm

adifferentname wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
K_Kelly wrote:
Call here if you are someone who thinks progressives or identity politics is a bunch of BS. I think the concepts, progressives and identity politics are related, but they aren't the same. And some people will jump on here and say that I'm lumping "progressives" into one group. I don't really agree, but fair then. I'll just describe them and their ideology as people who think "the struggle is never over" and keep on moving past, changing the goal post through time.

There is just something about this concept that scares me about progressives.

Imagine if it was 20 years from now unacceptable to reject/disagree or say anything about fat people, using today's analog of disagreement or saying anything about gays or people of another race?

But I can't be the only one a little frightened by this, can I?


Well maybe some day the anti-progressives will end all welfare programs to help the poor and disabled, that seems just as disturbing of a thought.


Anti-progressive =/= anti-welfare.

Before I continue, I'm going to point out the necessary distinction between little-p "progressive", as characterised by a desire for reform, change and improvement and big-P "Progressive", a political identity. The former is a characteristic shared by anyone who proposes we should change "x" in order to achieve "y", the latter describes individuals and groups who are engaging in tribalism.

I'm going to assume the OP is referring to big-P "Progressives" as the argument otherwise doesn't make too much sense.

Quote:
Also not really sure how identity politics and progressive is the same thing...progressive at its basis is about progress in society like making things better.


Big-P Progressives, on the other hand, focus almost exclusively on social reforms in the form of <insert race/religion/social background> is oppressed/is oppressive, that we should give <insert race/religion/social background> special treatment.

Quote:
I mean what is it you want to say about fat peope or gays or people of other races that you're afraid will become unacceptable?


I thought it had nothing to do with identity politics? Your argument is at odds with itself.

I can't speak on behalf of K_Kelly, but I stand with the SCOTUS when it comes to "hate speech".

Quote:
I myself don't really think it should be seen as acceptable to discriminate against gays or people of other races for instance...I don't think someone should be thrown in jail if they ever say something negative in regards to it...but I certainly don't think society should be accepting of someone spewing hate towards gays or a specific race of people for instance.


Which "society" are we talking about here? Your bio states that you live in Colorado. What law would you like to see enacted in order to achieve your goal of making "society" intolerant of discrimination on the basis of sexuality or race?

Do you not appreciate the irony of you defending progressivism on the grounds that it is not the "same thing" as identity politics, yet your entire supporting argument revolved around discrimination on the basis of race and sexuality? Surely an element of progress is moving past issues that were decided upon decades ago. This is why Progressives are referred to as "Regressives"; they're actively pushing for division on the grounds of race, sexuality, religion, etc in a manner that is entirely antithetical to the vision laid out by genuine civil rights champions such as MLK.


Well than I guess there is progressive, and then groups that call themselves 'Progressive' but instead they really are more after oppressive rules they agree with...rather than actually being progressive and changing things for the better over all. I would say I am more in line with the first one, like I like to see good/positive progress but I don't agree with oppressive laws or excessive censorship to get there. I notice a lot of the second sort of progressives also identify as democrats and well hence the reason I don't like the democratic party anymore than the republican party.

Also as for getting rid of welfare there is that sentiment amoung some conservatives...so if they were to actually carry out getting rid of the social safety net I think that would be just as concerning as any 'progressive' groups trying to impose some kind of crazy speech laws where you have to watch what you say or be imprisoned. I personally though don't think either of those will happen because there would be too much opposition.

And yes I live in colorado, and I don't think there are any particular laws to be put in place to make society less tolerant of such things. I mean if there is a law for that and people break it then the attitude is still there, I more prefer the idea of social change...like people of their own accord not giving approval if someone is being discriminatory/hateful of someone based on their race, sexuality, gender, disability or whatever. Laws for that just defeat the purpose. Also Colorado is pretty diverse, I mean if someones going to go around trying to be a blatant racist or spew a bunch of religious based crap of how unclean homosexuals are they aren't going to win many friends/friendly acquaintances. And that is the kind of thing I agree with, not laws so whenever anyone says something you can involve the authorities...that would be a mess, and then what happens if you have a group of friends that joke with each other about race and sexuality?

Also I have not even given an entire argument, was just responding to the O.P and that is where race and sexuality was brought up...If I really wanted to make a case for progressive thinking that probably is not where I would start. I can agree that some progressives certainly are adding more to division than improving it, which makes it hard for me to think of them as people who actually think progressively and is regressive. But I see plenty of regressives on the conservative side as well.


_________________
We won't go back.


XFilesGeek
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jul 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 6,031
Location: The Oort Cloud

15 Jul 2017, 7:02 pm

TheSpectrum wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm agender/genderqueer.

I don't give a damn if it's considered part of "identity politics." I've identified as such for the past ten years, and I first became aware of the "genderqueer" label in the late 90s.

Just sayin'.....

I don't think anyone minds that too much in the thread XFG. :D

The gripe appears to be more with the politics and ironic terminology that follow any set identity rather than the identity itself.


I know.

I'm just venting.


_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."

-XFG (no longer a moderator)


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,253
Location: Long Island, New York

15 Jul 2017, 7:02 pm

"Progressive" became the go to word when "liberal" was demonized.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman