10 Oct 2017, 3:19 pm
...I must say that the endless " BUT WHAT ABOUT BLACK-ON-BLACK VIOLENCE??!" by the statue-lovers, football fans, no doubt etc....is repititious. And what have the statue-lovers done about it? Most Caucasian violence is " white-on-white ", FTM. Violence tends to be committed on people nearby, it's based on proximity.
As for the incidents of proven and alleged police misconduct that inspired the NFL protests...police are NOT SUPPOSED to commit improprieties! Society agrees that ghetto crime, and suburbia crime for that matter, is deplorable, there is a consensus about that.
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Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
ASPartOfMe
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26 Oct 2017, 10:00 am
26 Oct 2017, 10:43 am
28 Oct 2017, 1:12 pm
...You know, if those Dsughters Of the Confederacy groups took some statues...they coulld have " just us girls " wanking sessions staring up at the statues of generals and imagine they'rd in the arms of Clark Gable! (or Adolphe Menjou or Robert Montgomery 
) They could use yams to gratify themselves, like Karen Finley did (My mother's home county in East Texas had thid annual Yamboree), have mass J/O sessions...but this time, reclaim female sexuality FOR the patriarchy 
!
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
28 Oct 2017, 4:14 pm
ASS-P wrote:
...I've already lost a draft of his due to my phone, CC, so I will be iting this in installments...
I was going to start a line about the " Big D Lee flee spree glee! " (Okay, okay, okay - - I always wanted to write headlines for New York City tabloids .), but, since it's in here...But, to start it out...
Bluntly, the interests of those who want the statues taken off of public land, and the interests of those who wish the statues to emain on public kand, or " rights ", as you put it...essentially run 100 percent in opposition to each other. The " anti- staches " want them gone from public land. The " pro-staches " want them kept on publc land.
Remember that leader of the Charlottesville pro-staches legal fight, who, in a TV address, referred to " Martin Luther C**n "? I wonder how many times he said that in private? Now, I' m not saying every pro-stach is like him...Who was, identally, obviously a person of some position and wealth, to be leading a legal fight. Hardly a " Bubba ".
IIRC, your position about the statues' presence on public land was " the people who don't like the statues should just stay away from that part of town "...I am not9 saying you were thinking of this, but I believe that, in at least some cases in thhe past, the statues were meant to mark " This is the white man's part of town, N.s, STAY OUT!
"...
at"]Robert E. Lee statue is taken-down, overnight, in Dallas:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dalla ... SKCN1BQ07Z
Angered anti-statue-removal people had demonstrated, when they first heard word, that it would be coming-down----but, they removed it, anyway. The "Sons of Confederate Veterans" went to court, to stop it, but they, too, were not successful.
I'm thinking that if the South, of all places, is going to be doing all this anti-Confederate stuff, TOO, this is really gonna get serious, and really put some people, up-in-arms (maybe, literally, armed)----and, all it takes is another nutcake, who snaps, and kills another person(s), for ALL white people / Southerners, AGAIN, to be denigrated / held accountable, for that ONE person.
Again / STILL, my argument, is: Why is it that the FOR-removal people get THEIR way / rights, but the ANTI-removal people, are NOT allowed THEIR rights?
[/quote]I was going to start a line about the " Big D Lee flee spree glee! " (Okay, okay, okay -
- I always wanted to write headlines for New York City tabloids .), but, since it's in here...But, to start it out...Bluntly, the interests of those who want the statues taken off of public land, and the interests of those who wish the statues to emain on public kand, or " rights ", as you put it...essentially run 100 percent in opposition to each other. The " anti- staches " want them gone from public land. The " pro-staches " want them kept on publc land.
Remember that leader of the Charlottesville pro-staches legal fight, who, in a TV address, referred to " Martin Luther C**n "? I wonder how many times he said that in private? Now, I' m not saying every pro-stach is like him...Who was, identally, obviously a person of some position and wealth, to be leading a legal fight. Hardly a " Bubba ".
IIRC, your position about the statues' presence on public land was " the people who don't like the statues should just stay away from that part of town "...I am not9 saying you were thinking of this, but I believe that, in at least some cases in thhe past, the statues were meant to mark " This is the white man's part of town, N.s, STAY OUT!
"...at"]Robert E. Lee statue is taken-down, overnight, in Dallas:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-dalla ... SKCN1BQ07Z
Angered anti-statue-removal people had demonstrated, when they first heard word, that it would be coming-down----but, they removed it, anyway. The "Sons of Confederate Veterans" went to court, to stop it, but they, too, were not successful.
I'm thinking that if the South, of all places, is going to be doing all this anti-Confederate stuff, TOO, this is really gonna get serious, and really put some people, up-in-arms (maybe, literally, armed)----and, all it takes is another nutcake, who snaps, and kills another person(s), for ALL white people / Southerners, AGAIN, to be denigrated / held accountable, for that ONE person.
Again / STILL, my argument, is: Why is it that the FOR-removal people get THEIR way / rights, but the ANTI-removal people, are NOT allowed THEIR rights?
...A bunch of additional points, to variojs posts above. But now I'll split it into separate posts.
CC, I misposted just " t " when I meant to post " not " in my last sentence, above, wbi h cohld havs led to a 180-deggee reversal of the meaning as taken by the reader of the sentence. The " not " may not have been understood - Like " guilty " versus " not guilty. Quite a difference
! Anyway, I'm sorry for the drastic fubar.
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
28 Oct 2017, 4:29 pm
Adp 
PartOfMe"]
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The country as a whole is losing big time because the ILLIBERAL left is winning because the Republicans are so inept even Trump has given up on them and is doing deals with the Dems. We are not talking just about Confederate statues anymore, that is soo last month, we are talking about statues of Columbus and Francis Scott Key and in due time really making every figure that has anything to do with American History seem like a cancer using the excuse that most of them reflecting their times were bigots.
They're symbols, not history. And what actual history has taught me is that symbols are pretty much erected to be destroyed at some point, sometimes due to cultural shift, others due to foreign intervention, and for being stone and steel they're actually very temporary. How about we stop worshiping symbols altogether and actually just teach people their history, wouldn't that be a more productive use of human time?
As for Columbus and Key I have no issue with them, neither attacked the country, and so they're non-issues for me. I can't speak for others on this issue as I'm not particularly tied to it. But you're right, there are some on the left that want to destroy everything they don't like, just as there are people on the right that want to destroy everything they don't like. It's not a partisan issue, nutcases exist on the fringes of every movement and we're in an era where only nutcases get coverage whether it be far-right on MSM, or far-left on Alt-right media.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Weird era, the Republicans control the Presidency, the congress the statehouses, but the left is influential or controls, higher education, the culture, the communications technologies and time is on their side because the Millennials lean more their way. The opposition leans older, that means they have jobs, family and many have the strength and health or understanding to deal with the illiberal left.
One on one interactions, business, and media drive culture, the government is merely the final arbiter. Slightly over half our population votes, our politics are not truly representative of our actual on the ground culture. People will follow those around them, not politicians. There's a huge silent majority out there that you won't see debate, or even bring up politics, but their interactions in everyday life have a cumulative effect that's greater than anything government can mandate or control. Also of note: more people voted for Democrats than Republicans this election cycle, and not just in the presidential election, in house races as well. You, living in New York, are actually being disenfranchised by me, living in Colorado due to the fact that we get 2 freebie senators regardless of population. And that's just the minority rights inherent in the Constitution, if we're looking at disenfranchisement through gerrymandering, you could be in a house district that looks like a jigsaw puzzle, and the only reason it looks that way is to disenfranchise someone. *the first puzzle is pretty tame, they get wilder as you complete them.
Many on the left are not hard core illiberal's, but have sympathetic leanings. The type of thinking that says I know vandalizing statues is wrong but it damn it does feel good to see those statues defaced and Milo forced to cancel. It is clear that government and campus officials in Berkely and elsewhere enable these riots against opinions they deem hate speech. This has been seen at other campuses. Government officials complicit in this are failing in their job to protect the Constitution and certain citizens. Trump has played fast and loose with protecting the Constitution is a convenient excuse. The statues are symbols. The successful campaign to deface and remove them is symbolic of society's inability and unwillingness to protect the free expression of certain opinions.[/quote]
...ASP, aren't the statues supposed to be neutral memorials? But you seem to say they're " opinions "!
The opinion that It Was A Noble, Lost, Cause Which Wasn't About Slavery ? As far as pre-rmpting things go, several states - including NC, where the statuue-smashing eas - have state laws prohibiting the statues from being moved, pre-empting any local option. That would sure tend to buid up on the resentment of the statues that already existed.If you find the wants-statues-off-public-land side " bastards " would you be willing to go South and chain yourselves to the statues and block the 'dozèrs in civil disobedience? You could all sing Mollu Hatchet/Ted Nugent/Kid Rock songs to keep your spirits up when you're arrested
!Considering the generations the slavery-glorifying statues werr up, and the likely reaction of pre-1970 authority figures to any criticism, I'm not feeling very weepy about the pore percy-cutt-ed statue lovers.
PRIVATE LAND, and then they can salaam and kneel to the stachie-watchies all they want
!
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
28 Oct 2017, 7:59 pm
ASPartOfMe
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Joined: 25 Aug 2013
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Gender: Male
Posts: 34,468
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29 Oct 2017, 12:01 am
29 Oct 2017, 10:39 pm
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The country as a whole is losing big time because the ILLIBERAL left is winning because the Republicans are so inept even Trump has given up on them and is doing deals with the Dems. We are not talking just about Confederate statues anymore, that is soo last month, we are talking about statues of Columbus and Francis Scott Key and in due time really making every figure that has anything to do with American History seem like a cancer using the excuse that most of them reflecting their times were bigots.
They're symbols, not history. And what actual history has taught me is that symbols are pretty much erected to be destroyed at some point, sometimes due to cultural shift, others due to foreign intervention, and for being stone and steel they're actually very temporary. How about we stop worshiping symbols altogether and actually just teach people their history, wouldn't that be a more productive use of human time?
As for Columbus and Key I have no issue with them, neither attacked the country, and so they're non-issues for me. I can't speak for others on this issue as I'm not particularly tied to it. But you're right, there are some on the left that want to destroy everything they don't like, just as there are people on the right that want to destroy everything they don't like. It's not a partisan issue, nutcases exist on the fringes of every movement and we're in an era where only nutcases get coverage whether it be far-right on MSM, or far-left on Alt-right media.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Weird era, the Republicans control the Presidency, the congress the statehouses, but the left is influential or controls, higher education, the culture, the communications technologies and time is on their side because the Millennials lean more their way. The opposition leans older, that means they have jobs, family and many have the strength and health or understanding to deal with the illiberal left.
One on one interactions, business, and media drive culture, the government is merely the final arbiter. Slightly over half our population votes, our politics are not truly representative of our actual on the ground culture. People will follow those around them, not politicians. There's a huge silent majority out there that you won't see debate, or even bring up politics, but their interactions in everyday life have a cumulative effect that's greater than anything government can mandate or control. Also of note: more people voted for Democrats than Republicans this election cycle, and not just in the presidential election, in house races as well. You, living in New York, are actually being disenfranchised by me, living in Colorado due to the fact that we get 2 freebie senators regardless of population. And that's just the minority rights inherent in the Constitution, if we're looking at disenfranchisement through gerrymandering, you could be in a house district that looks like a jigsaw puzzle, and the only reason it looks that way is to disenfranchise someone. *the first puzzle is pretty tame, they get wilder as you complete them.
Many on the left are not hard core illiberal's, but have sympathetic leanings. The type of thinking that says I know vandalizing statues is wrong but it damn it does feel good to see those statues defaced and Milo forced to cancel. It is clear that government and campus officials in Berkely and elsewhere enable these riots against opinions they deem hate speech. This has been seen at other campuses. Government officials complicit in this are failing in their job to protect the Constitution and certain citizens. Trump has played fast and loose with protecting the Constitution is a convenient excuse. The statues are symbols. The successful campaign to deface and remove them is symbolic of society's inability and unwillingness to protect the free expression of certain opinions.
As I've said before: the government's stance is they'll allow you to assemble, they make no claims about protecting you from counter speech, that in itself would make them an arbiter, and thus the speech would be compulsory to the government's wishes. As for Berkley, you're quoting the nutcases, and I'm not going to defend them, they should have allowed Milo to speak and Milo should have been shouted down by the vast majority of that campus that feels the opposite way. Also of note, Berkley is a private college, they're not a government institution, they're allowed to do what they want with their property. I'm not forced to allow protesters into my private residence, nor are they forced to allow anyone access to their private property.
As I said before: statues are symbols and symbols are always removed because culture changes and the symbols become out of date, or in most cases a society falls to another and replaces those symbols. For every pristine statue from antiquity there are hundreds more defaced or completely destroyed. That's why I advocate not putting too much faith in a symbol, if you're acting towards the stated ideals of what the symbol represents that's a much more powerful statement then worshiping an idol. I'm sorry, I just don't see any inherent benefit of them, that goes for everything from the Washington monument to the MLK statue to any of these confederate statues that are the topic, to even the American flag for that matter. I'm concerned with the philosophy and direction of movements, not the signifiers, because the signifiers have no meaning without the attached philosophy, in fact they wouldn't even exist without it. On a more practical side of that argument, many philosophies and movements can reach harmony with one another, but not when people are constantly pushing their pride symbols first and foremost over attempting to reach agreement.
On a completely unrelated note, some asshat put a giant, and I mean giant U.S. flag up on his hill right next to where my house is located. The flag whips around at night and creates a loud snapping sound in the wind in which used to be a silent remote area (the reason I moved here). It wakes me up at night and grades on my auditory senses during the day, and makes the dogs from my other two neighbors bark incessantly when it snaps. So no, I'm not a big fan of flags at all at the moment.
...Factual correction: The University of California at Berkeley (Cal) is, in fact, a state college, part of the University of California system. It is a public institution.
_________________
Renal kidney failure, congestive heart failure, COPD. Can't really get up from a floor position unhelped anymore:-(.
One of the walking wounded ~ SMASHED DOWN by life and age, now prevented from even expressing myself! SOB.
" Oh, no! First you have to PROVE you deserve to go away to college! " ~ My mother, 1978 (the heyday of Andy Gibb and Player). I would still like to go.
My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!
ASPartOfMe
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07 Nov 2017, 2:57 pm
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,468
Location: Long Island, New York
08 Jan 2018, 6:11 pm
08 Jan 2018, 6:44 pm
08 Jan 2018, 8:11 pm
08 Jan 2018, 10:04 pm
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
This isn't because of Trump. It's just social progress.
Strictly coincidental, eh?
10 Jan 2018, 7:55 pm
10 Jan 2018, 8:03 pm
