What I'm getting of the 'white nationalist' dialogue

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I'd say that's fundamentally incorrect. It's a lot more profound than that. The way I'd say it is that European Enlightenment-based democracy isn't just 'in our genes' or human instinct, it's something people are taught throughout their lives, its a way of thinking that people's parents or native culture either teaches or doesn't teach, and it's not a natural thing to pick up the nuances of.


You'd have to tell me what part of it's results you think are sensationalized; whether it's police no-go zones in the UK and France, honor killings by family members, female circumcision, demands on local government for Sharia-compliant laws, or killing of apostates.

Yeah, city people, on average, compared to country people, on average. In Cairo, apartments have a sort of morality watchman. They hire country people. Also, notably, they all take bribes, according to local reporrs.

I could find no reliable reporting on No Go Zones. The rest is not mandated by Sharia, but local custom. The UK has updated laws to address the other abominable crimes you mention. Sharia formally requires obeying the laws where Muslims live.

I just did a Google search and ran into all the "Gnahahahahaah!! They don't exist!! They don't exist!! Fox News Trump Alt-Right ret*ds!! !! We got em!! !! Boom!! !" - my apologies.

That's worrisome, mainly because this shouldn't exist either in that case.....unless the alt-right is getting so clever that they're writing fake-moderate articles that are somewhere in between:
https://www.thelocal.se/20170621/no-go- ... rable-aeas

Not to say that this proves the case, or has anything to do with the UK or France, just that if it is true I'm starting to doubt with this kind of noise whether you'd ever be able to find out one way or the other. I say that because I saw as many news sources that there no no-go zones in Sweden as saying that there were none in the UK or France. They of course can't both exist, and not exist, at the same time - unless that is they're Schrodinger's no-go zones.

So, I'll concede it as an unfalsifiiable point.

With this environment I'm starting to wonder if we even need the Russians or their avante-garde Hype Williams-style movie makers to spike our information sources with LSD. If we really can't tell whether these things are true or not that's even more worrying in its own way than the no-go zone issue. We've got fratboys and sorority girls taking a drunken piss on curbs and calling it journalism.

Or the other possibility - if they're not exactly no-go zones but close - Trump says they exist, the MSM almost wets themselves laughing about his raving lunatic hallucinations, there almost seems to be something like a scientific formula appearing here:

Truth = (What Trump Says + What MSM says) / 2

When I mentioned my fear of the abyss of infinite stupidity - part of what helps foment that is a media that's not exactly gas-lighting us, more just sharing their cartridge cleaner or whip-its whether we want a huff or not.

That looks like a false equivalence. Trump lies in a higher percentage of statements than the real journalists, much higher

Well, that trues us up on unfalsifiable statements.

Again, we'd have to agree on definitions.

I'd estimate a quarter of Trump's political statements contain factual inaccuracies. He constantly misrepresents various groups and historical events (most recently regarding Pershing in the Philippines). Most of his statements will require waiting to see if he follows through on them. He has a poor record on that, so far. But this thread isn't entirely about Trump. He didn't create this phenomenon. No one else would stoop so low as to exploit it so thoroughly. Tea Party Republicans would flirt with Nazis, but it took Trump to give them regular tongue kisses in full public view.

I think these voices had been quiet for a while, and then got a lot louder. I don't believe the increased volume represents the same increase in actual strength. Have you thought about the physical movement of people involved? The economic disruption boggles my mind.

I have a lot of family that's Tea Party, they really have much more in common with the 'alt-light'; ie. Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Laura Ingram, etc. etc.. - traditional 1980's to early/mid 2000's center-right with an odd blend of neoconservative and the K Clean Skousen small-government views.

The new right is really much younger, less Christian more pagan, and tending strongly toward either radical anti-Marxism or, as I cited in the alt-right as most of them would self-describe, extremely pessimistic about civic nationalism.

Nativism is in resurgence with all this talk about "the failure of multiculturalism," and of unassimilable immigrants. The same had been said about every group of immigrants to America, and yet every one of those immigrant groups in time became Americans.

Yep.

This is how Irish people were viewed back in the "good old days".


I'm part Irish. In the "good old days", I would be considered "mongrel" and "not really white".

I actually agree that it's stupid to think that it can't be done, I also do think that there's a particular sweet-spot on immigration as to how much is too much or too little at that point and - like government spending - you have to watch the collected feedback carefully. I think, out of all of the countries collectively thought of as 'the west' the United States is probably in the least dangerous spot on this. Our trouble is not that civic nationalism is failing, more like we've had a generations of political thinkers and educators who've been steering people away from civic nationalism and replacing it with identity politics.

I'm just hoping that what's happened over the last couple years and especially in the past year, between the various deans and professors being harassed into retirement and transfer and request for absolute safety from discomfort on campuses to the rise of violence from Antifa and then, in answer the neo-Nazis, has left a bad enough taste in people's mouths that can be associated with identity politics so that we find our way back to civic nationalism, civic humanism, whatever gets us working together again as constructively as possible.

The usually very tolerant and wise Benjamin Franklin, no less, had expressed uncharacteristic bigotry toward German immigrants for being allegedly unassimilable due to language and having come from places without free government, as well as for not being white enough.

When immigrants intermarry with native inhabitants assimilation becomes virtually unavoidable for their offspring.

tech, reconsider my rural/urban division. City people can get along with other city people. They don't get along in the manner of rural people, with their noses deep in each other's business, but they get along even if they come from cities on either side of the globe

Rural people would more often than not have bizarre ideas about rural people from another country. I grew up in rural areas, and I can assure you they have weird ideas about the people in the smaller town 30 MILES AWAY. No s**t.

The conflict is urban diversity vs. rural ethnostates.

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this claim - either in how the middle-east gulf states enforce sharia, in the various ways that race wars work in Africa, or much of anything else for that matter. When it comes to religious or cultural incursions and gangs I tend to see the lower IQ and culturally conservative portion of that populace being behind it (the more intelligent can go either way but tend to me more liberal) and you have as many low IQ people in cities as you have anywhere else unless it's a poor enough country to where nutrition is wreaking havoc on brain development.

there's something in that, politically cities getting more and more opposed to rural, it was some years ago the urban population went over 50% (worldwide), sure city population wants to share ressources with any ai equity/meriocratic redistribution (the war on farming, pet-sacralisation isn't random, manipulating zeitgeist is planned longterm, very longterm)
or we'll see venus-project-like city states controlling resources, dronewars?
just one step from feudal middle-ages, a tiny step, powered by tech-energy, mining-wars, ideological superstitions and good-old propaganda,
when you live in a glasshouse, participation is commandatory, subsidise students to wreck everything personal,
oh no, not the famine-train again
already we see the overhaul of instances of justice, normalising 'lynching mobs', the 'moral fury' unleashed,
peoples' tribunals sitting on righteous banks of "delusions and madness of the masses",
the pitt of revengefullness jealously stored and cultivated for occasions of operating general blackouts

eventually........ fail is certain, but at what cost?

If I were to try and put my finger on what I think is one of the more significant dynamics that put us where we're at:

Very few cultures can survive prosperity. The moment we go into having plenty of food, plenty of jobs, etc.. we get to a point where there are no longer direct consequences for thoughts, ideas, and behavior that fall outside of what would allow a person to survive in more difficult times or would inherently bring down such a chastening just by sheer cause and effect that the person would know, for the rest of their lives, that they screwed up badly. There's an illusion of infinite resources, or at least people know they're finite but if they can't see the end in sight or they get the impression that it'll never be their own problem - they consider themselves free to go on a bender like some young trust-fund brat who inherited his/her parent's wealth. In a lot of ways prosperity economics reward people for the worst behavior and often get around to punishing the most adult/responsible among us, especially in a democracy where expedience of placating the squeakiest wheel can be handled very quickly by throwing money out.

We've been on such a roll with living like lottery winners that it's really turned into something of an addiction complex and I'm deeply concerned that no facts, figures, or even clear math denoting the consequences will be enough to curb the addiction - we're used to a certain standard of living and will want to play the same dog-eats-dog destructive competition and live opulently until it's all gone. We should probably keep a close eye on Venezuela because I think there's a good chance that the whole west is probably going to look like that within a few decades.