What I'm getting of the 'white nationalist' dialogue

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jrjones9933
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18 Aug 2017, 7:57 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Disclaimer on this first part - it's generalizations and hypotheses, ie. I could drill into some of them further but it would be impossible (or unreadable and horribly untimely) for me to load it down with support immediately.

Firstly I think it can be said that there's no one group that monolithically does not or cannot assimilate. Different groups have different speeds at which they can, different quantities at which they can, and I think it depends on a lot of things such as:

- Why the person immigrated.
- Where they immigrated from.
- How many other people of their group are immigrating at the same time.
- How well assimilated are the people they'll be living amongst once they get here.

I gave an example earlier I think regarding people who are refugees. When someone leaves a country to go to another for its values they'll assimilate quickly. If they're going for education they may or may not assimilate depending on whether their religious and cultural beliefs readily allow it. If they're refugees assimilation is not their key issue - their key issue is primarily getting out of where they're at.

I'll try to break the rest of this into two clusters - groups who don't want to assimilate or whose priorities don't include assimiation first, then groups whose assimilation is being badly mismanaged at a domestic level.

I think one of the most obvious examples of refugees not assimilating is middle-eastern and north African muslims. I personally know a lot of muslims who are highly intelligent people, very convivial, they can strike up a good conversation with most people and I have friends who are like this - they have high IQ and they also either didn't come over as refugees or if their parents did their parents were highly intelligent, professionals, likely already more social and intellectually oriented than necessarily religiously oriented, and that makes a lot of the difference. What I'll say about those who aren't assimilating or aren't interested in assimilating - they follow the same sort of heuristic that we do in that the less intelligent part of their populace tends to be religiously oriented.

The best way I can describe their situation (ie. the more religious, less intellectual, not here by choice, etc.) - they're religiously devout, they were raised with some degree of either Islamic law or concepts that Islamic law is a good thing, they were in a war-torn part of their country or for whatever other reason couldn't stay, they did what most sane people in this situation do which is go where there's food, safety, and shelter. If they find themselves in another Islamic country - fine. If they find themselves in a western democracy - fine. What can be said is that they consider Islam and the Quran and Hadith a way of life, to whatever extent that they idealize Sharia law they idealize Sharia law, to whatever extent they can and to whatever extent that they've cloistered with people as close as possible to their own race and beliefs when they get to wherever they go they want to live by Sharia, have it in their life, and to whatever extent that Sharia clashes with European Enlightenment values is not their problem. That's a problem for philosophers, politicians, and legislators. They're simple people living simple lives who want to live their religion and you can't ask them to do the philosophic acrobatics of making their beliefs reconcile with the culture they're joining - that's intellectually just not what they're made of, only experience can teach them what works in a European Enlightenment democracy, and if they're like most people they'll gravitate to other people like themselves and by and large avoid the challenge to transform or adjust their beliefs. If it's only a small trickle of them coming in they're forced to either adapt, leave, or find some way to make up the difference, otherwise they'll do what any person does - especially people of any ethnicity and of average to low IQ and education, which is avoid any challenges to whatever ideas or conceptions that they're already functioning on (and if their low IQ such changes are incredibly expensive - perhaps even truly dangerous to their well-being, sanity, etc..).

...snip...

jrjones - let me know if that helped blow some of the smoke off of what you were seeing.

I'll reply to the first part. You describe a portion of the people in every population. They have trouble adjusting to the information age and city people, basically.

As to Sharia, it's a mostly meaningless scare word, inconsistent in its interpretation and application.


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techstepgenr8tion
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18 Aug 2017, 8:31 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
I'll reply to the first part. You describe a portion of the people in every population. They have trouble adjusting to the information age and city people, basically.

I'd say that's fundamentally incorrect. It's a lot more profound than that. The way I'd say it is that European Enlightenment-based democracy isn't just 'in our genes' or human instinct, it's something people are taught throughout their lives, its a way of thinking that people's parents or native culture either teaches or doesn't teach, and it's not a natural thing to pick up the nuances of.

jrjones9933 wrote:
As to Sharia, it's a mostly meaningless scare word, inconsistent in its interpretation and application.

You'd have to tell me what part of it's results you think are sensationalized; whether it's police no-go zones in the UK and France, honor killings by family members, female circumcision, demands on local government for Sharia-compliant laws, or killing of apostates.


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jrjones9933
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18 Aug 2017, 8:41 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
I'll reply to the first part. You describe a portion of the people in every population. They have trouble adjusting to the information age and city people, basically.

I'd say that's fundamentally incorrect. It's a lot more profound than that. The way I'd say it is that European Enlightenment-based democracy isn't just 'in our genes' or human instinct, it's something people are taught throughout their lives, its a way of thinking that people's parents or native culture either teaches or doesn't teach, and it's not a natural thing to pick up the nuances of.

jrjones9933 wrote:
As to Sharia, it's a mostly meaningless scare word, inconsistent in its interpretation and application.

You'd have to tell me what part of it's results you think are sensationalized; whether it's police no-go zones in the UK and France, honor killings by family members, female circumcision, demands on local government for Sharia-compliant laws, or killing of apostates.


Yeah, city people, on average, compared to country people, on average. In Cairo, apartments have a sort of morality watchman. They hire country people. Also, notably, they all take bribes, according to local reporrs.

I could find no reliable reporting on No Go Zones. The rest is not mandated by Sharia, but local custom. The UK has updated laws to address the other abominable crimes you mention. Sharia formally requires obeying the laws where Muslims live.


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techstepgenr8tion
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18 Aug 2017, 11:24 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
I could find no reliable reporting on No Go Zones.


I just did a Google search and ran into all the "Gnahahahahaah!! They don't exist!! They don't exist!! Fox News Trump Alt-Right ret*ds!! !! We got em!! !! Boom!! !" - my apologies.

That's worrisome, mainly because this shouldn't exist either in that case.....unless the alt-right is getting so clever that they're writing fake-moderate articles that are somewhere in between:
https://www.thelocal.se/20170621/no-go- ... rable-aeas

Not to say that this proves the case, or has anything to do with the UK or France, just that if it is true I'm starting to doubt with this kind of noise whether you'd ever be able to find out one way or the other. I say that because I saw as many news sources that there no no-go zones in Sweden as saying that there were none in the UK or France. They of course can't both exist, and not exist, at the same time - unless that is they're Schrodinger's no-go zones.

So, I'll concede it as an unfalsifiiable point.

With this environment I'm starting to wonder if we even need the Russians or their avante-garde Hype Williams-style movie makers to spike our information sources with LSD. If we really can't tell whether these things are true or not that's even more worrying in its own way than the no-go zone issue. We've got fratboys and sorority girls taking a drunken piss on curbs and calling it journalism.

Or the other possibility - if they're not exactly no-go zones but close - Trump says they exist, the MSM almost wets themselves laughing about his raving lunatic hallucinations, there almost seems to be something like a scientific formula appearing here:

Truth = (What Trump Says + What MSM says) / 2

When I mentioned my fear of the abyss of infinite stupidity - part of what helps foment that is a media that's not exactly gas-lighting us, more just sharing their cartridge cleaner or whip-its whether we want a huff or not.


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19 Aug 2017, 3:37 am

Quote:
Truth = (What Trump Says + What MSM says) / 2


That looks like a false equivalence. Trump lies in a higher percentage of statements than the real journalists, much higher


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techstepgenr8tion
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19 Aug 2017, 5:31 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Quote:
Truth = (What Trump Says + What MSM says) / 2


That looks like a false equivalence. Trump lies in a higher percentage of statements than the real journalists, much higher

Well, that trues us up on unfalsifiable statements.


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jrjones9933
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19 Aug 2017, 6:28 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Quote:
Truth = (What Trump Says + What MSM says) / 2


That looks like a false equivalence. Trump lies in a higher percentage of statements than the real journalists, much higher

Well, that trues us up on unfalsifiable statements.

Again, we'd have to agree on definitions.

I'd estimate a quarter of Trump's political statements contain factual inaccuracies. He constantly misrepresents various groups and historical events (most recently regarding Pershing in the Philippines). Most of his statements will require waiting to see if he follows through on them. He has a poor record on that, so far. But this thread isn't entirely about Trump. He didn't create this phenomenon. No one else would stoop so low as to exploit it so thoroughly. Tea Party Republicans would flirt with Nazis, but it took Trump to give them regular tongue kisses in full public view.

I think these voices had been quiet for a while, and then got a lot louder. I don't believe the increased volume represents the same increase in actual strength. Have you thought about the physical movement of people involved? The economic disruption boggles my mind.


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techstepgenr8tion
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19 Aug 2017, 4:40 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
No one else would stoop so low as to exploit it so thoroughly. Tea Party Republicans would flirt with Nazis, but it took Trump to give them regular tongue kisses in full public view.


I have a lot of family that's Tea Party, they really have much more in common with the 'alt-light'; ie. Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, Michael Medved, Laura Ingram, etc. etc.. - traditional 1980's to early/mid 2000's center-right with an odd blend of neoconservative and the K Clean Skousen small-government views.

The new right is really much younger, less Christian more pagan, and tending strongly toward either radical anti-Marxism or, as I cited in the alt-right as most of them would self-describe, extremely pessimistic about civic nationalism.


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20 Aug 2017, 1:05 pm

Nativism is in resurgence with all this talk about "the failure of multiculturalism," and of unassimilable immigrants. The same had been said about every group of immigrants to America, and yet every one of those immigrant groups in time became Americans.


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20 Aug 2017, 1:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Nativism is in resurgence with all this talk about "the failure of multiculturalism," and of unassimilable immigrants. The same had been said about every group of immigrants to America, and yet every one of those immigrant groups in time became Americans.


Yep.

This is how Irish people were viewed back in the "good old days".
Image

I'm part Irish. In the "good old days", I would be considered "mongrel" and "not really white".


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20 Aug 2017, 2:41 pm

I actually agree that it's stupid to think that it can't be done, I also do think that there's a particular sweet-spot on immigration as to how much is too much or too little at that point and - like government spending - you have to watch the collected feedback carefully. I think, out of all of the countries collectively thought of as 'the west' the United States is probably in the least dangerous spot on this. Our trouble is not that civic nationalism is failing, more like we've had a generations of political thinkers and educators who've been steering people away from civic nationalism and replacing it with identity politics.

I'm just hoping that what's happened over the last couple years and especially in the past year, between the various deans and professors being harassed into retirement and transfer and request for absolute safety from discomfort on campuses to the rise of violence from Antifa and then, in answer the neo-Nazis, has left a bad enough taste in people's mouths that can be associated with identity politics so that we find our way back to civic nationalism, civic humanism, whatever gets us working together again as constructively as possible.


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20 Aug 2017, 2:56 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Nativism is in resurgence with all this talk about "the failure of multiculturalism," and of unassimilable immigrants. The same had been said about every group of immigrants to America, and yet every one of those immigrant groups in time became Americans.


Yep.

This is how Irish people were viewed back in the "good old days".
Image

I'm part Irish. In the "good old days", I would be considered "mongrel" and "not really white".


The usually very tolerant and wise Benjamin Franklin, no less, had expressed uncharacteristic bigotry toward German immigrants for being allegedly unassimilable due to language and having come from places without free government, as well as for not being white enough.


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20 Aug 2017, 4:16 pm

When immigrants intermarry with native inhabitants assimilation becomes virtually unavoidable for their offspring.



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20 Aug 2017, 4:52 pm

tech, reconsider my rural/urban division. City people can get along with other city people. They don't get along in the manner of rural people, with their noses deep in each other's business, but they get along even if they come from cities on either side of the globe

Rural people would more often than not have bizarre ideas about rural people from another country. I grew up in rural areas, and I can assure you they have weird ideas about the people in the smaller town 30 MILES AWAY. No s**t.

The conflict is urban diversity vs. rural ethnostates.


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techstepgenr8tion
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20 Aug 2017, 4:59 pm

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this claim - either in how the middle-east gulf states enforce sharia, in the various ways that race wars work in Africa, or much of anything else for that matter. When it comes to religious or cultural incursions and gangs I tend to see the lower IQ and culturally conservative portion of that populace being behind it (the more intelligent can go either way but tend to me more liberal) and you have as many low IQ people in cities as you have anywhere else unless it's a poor enough country to where nutrition is wreaking havoc on brain development.


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21 Aug 2017, 1:56 am

there's something in that, politically cities getting more and more opposed to rural, it was some years ago the urban population went over 50% (worldwide), sure city population wants to share ressources with any ai equity/meriocratic redistribution (the war on farming, pet-sacralisation isn't random, manipulating zeitgeist is planned longterm, very longterm)
or we'll see venus-project-like city states controlling resources, dronewars?
just one step from feudal middle-ages, a tiny step, powered by tech-energy, mining-wars, ideological superstitions and good-old propaganda,
when you live in a glasshouse, participation is commandatory, subsidise students to wreck everything personal,
oh no, not the famine-train again
already we see the overhaul of instances of justice, normalising 'lynching mobs', the 'moral fury' unleashed,
peoples' tribunals sitting on righteous banks of "delusions and madness of the masses",
the pitt of revengefullness jealously stored and cultivated for occasions of operating general blackouts

eventually........ fail is certain, but at what cost?