Trump's War on Trans Rights

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Joined: 26 Feb 2017
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25 Aug 2017, 9:55 am

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/nee4p7/trumps-war-on-trans-rights-is-cynical-and-terrifying

So after all the progress made in the last eight years, it looks like Donald Trump is setting us up to be America's punching bag all over again. Those of you who voted for Trump: Why is this okay? Do you really hate us this much?

LoveNotHate
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25 Aug 2017, 1:52 pm

Caitlyn Jenner supported Donald Trump.

AceofPens
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25 Aug 2017, 2:14 pm

Look, politics are a terrible thing. You will never agree with any candidate on every subject, and if you do, I would worry that you were idolizing them for lack of options. This is unfortunately true of pretty much any republic or democracy. It's not a question of "Which candidate do I want to lead my country?" but rather "Which candidate is less likely to cause the kind of havoc and corruption I fear most?" And no one's going to agree on which kinds of corruption are worst. Abortion is one example of a decisive topic. Another person's could be gun-rights. Or welfare availability. Or tax reform. Trans rights are not at the top of the list for most people, because trans people are tiny minority.

People vote based on what is most important to them. It's not that people hate you. Seriously. Most people I know couldn't care less what you do in regard to your gender. You're just not everyone's priority, okay?

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MushroomPrincess
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25 Aug 2017, 3:04 pm

AceofPens wrote:

no one's going to agree on which kinds of corruption are worst. Abortion is one example of a decisive topic. Another person's could be gun-rights. Or welfare availability. Or tax reform. Trans rights are not at the top of the list for most people, because trans people are tiny minority.

Single-issue voters are what's wrong with America, and anyone who thinks gun rights are more important than human rights has a serious lack of empathy. The inhumanity of Trump's voter base has shocked the entire world, not just American liberals.

AceofPens
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25 Aug 2017, 4:38 pm

Again, you're only coming at this from your own biased point of view. Firstly, some people would argue that gun rights are human rights, and I've seen persuasive arguments in favor of this position. I've seen other people argue that certain rights demanded by trans people aren't actually human rights at all, and I would agree with some of them. No issue is black and white. As for the "inhumanity" of the voting base, I'd advise against generalizations like that. Everyone these days seems to have that "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality, and it's quite destructive for either side's case. As for single-issue voting, I don't believe there's any such thing. When I said decisive, I meant that they're priorities, not that they're the only thing that matters in a person's decision. I have never met a "single-issue voter." Let me ask you this, though: How would you have fared if Trump had been the one who was pro-trans, while Clinton was avidly anti-trans, so much so that she supported eugenics? Would you have had an easy time voting for her? These are the problems that many people face when voting, whether or not it has been your own experience.

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DarthMetaKnight
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25 Aug 2017, 5:40 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Caitlyn Jenner supported Donald Trump.

That's because Jenner has a special snowflake complex.

She's trying to be a "token trans conservative". To Hell with her.

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MushroomPrincess
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25 Aug 2017, 5:52 pm

AceofPens wrote:

I've seen other people argue that certain rights demanded by trans people aren't actually human rights at all, and I would agree with some of them.

Uh oh. Do I smell a TERF?

AceofPens
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25 Aug 2017, 7:16 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

Uh oh. Do I smell a TERF?

I'm not any breed of feminist. Apart from their dark history, I've found the term too vague to denote anything of true value. Labels aside, we all have our political beliefs and mine include the idea that the word "right" is thrown around far too often these days. This makes me dubious when it comes to controversies like the military ban and the past squabbles over bathroom access.

You didn't answer my question, though.

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Kraichgauer
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25 Aug 2017, 7:41 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Caitlyn Jenner supported Donald Trump.

And now does not.

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25 Aug 2017, 7:42 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

LoveNotHate wrote:

Caitlyn Jenner supported Donald Trump.

That's because Jenner has a special snowflake complex.

She's trying to be a "token trans conservative". To Hell with her.

Jenner has since admitted she had made a terrible mistake voting for Trump.

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25 Aug 2017, 7:46 pm

AceofPens wrote:

Erase the word "transgender," and write in "African American," then see how that looks. Saying that there's a right to discriminate against Trans or African Americans, or anyone for that matter, or saying that they get special rights, is never defendable.

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AceofPens
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25 Aug 2017, 9:21 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

It sounds the same to me. I think specific examples are easier to discuss, so let's take the bathroom dispute. I consider it a messy situation because firstly you have the property rights of the owners of said bathrooms, and then you have the trans/black person's...right to service? But do people have a right to service? Why? This is why I hesitate over such issues. You write as if it's simple, but I'm afraid you'll have to spell it out for me.

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MushroomPrincess
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25 Aug 2017, 9:42 pm

AceofPens wrote:

so let's take the bathroom dispute. I consider it a messy situation because firstly you have the property rights of the owners of said bathrooms, and then you have the trans/black person's...right to service? But do people have a right to service? Why?

You realize you're using the exact same logic that was used to defend racist Jim Crow laws?

"It's my private property, I don't have to serve n****** if I don't want to!"

Discriminating against minorities, making them feel unwelcome in public spaces. Is that really a "right" you want to defend?

Kraichgauer wrote:

Erase the word "transgender," and write in "African American," then see how that looks.

Yeah, I was gonna say something similar. Being able to serve in the military was a major milestone for black civil rights, as well as gay and trans rights. There's a lot of parallels here.

LoveNotHate
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25 Aug 2017, 10:06 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

AceofPens wrote:

Your example is not entirely equivalent, because no religious entities promoted Jim Crow laws.

The Supreme Court in the US (SCOTUS) has upheld a religious entity's right to discriminate based on firmly held religious beliefs.

Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burwell_v ... tores,_Inc.

MushroomPrincess
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25 Aug 2017, 10:34 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Your example is not entirely equivalent, because no religious entities promoted Jim Crow laws.

The Ku Klux Klan were (and are) explicitly a Christian organization.

DarthMetaKnight
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25 Aug 2017, 10:58 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:

Quit being an enabler.

If you believe something wrong because of religion, then you are still wrong.

Anti-LGBT discrimination is just like racism. Anti-LGBT discrimination comes from religion? Who cares? People have deeply-held religious beliefs? Who cares? Some people have deeply-held racist prejudices.

We shouldn't "be understanding" towards religious nuttery. That's right-wing political correctness.
No amount of Christian puppy-dog eyes will change that.

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