Why The Judaeo-Christian God Makes No Sense to Me

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Mikah
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20 Oct 2017, 4:49 pm

carturo222 wrote:
The only reason why we care about other people's wishes is our evolved ability for empathy. If I do not want to die, I can put myself in the shoes of someone at risk of dying and more-or-less-confidently assume they'd want to be safe. The entirety of morality comes from this process.


I think I see the origins of this thinking now, but carry on.

carturo222 wrote:
Part of our effort in making our points clear faces an obstacle in word usage. I use "human" as a solely biological category and "person" as a moral category. It appears to me that you use "human" as a moral category. Am I correct?


No I use it in its biological sense (Edit: actually it's not that simple, I need time to compose a better-than-one word description, as in my other post a few years ago, a human's progression through time is also a part of that understanding, which I don't think falls under biology strictly - whatever else that description is I wouldn't call it a moral category) my morality dictates that, while there are several arguable exceptions, we should not kill other humans and abortion is almost never one of those exceptions. I am wary of creating other categories of humans with the sole purpose of excusing killing, like persons and zygotes, Aryans and....

Edit2: unless... hm can morality and biology sensibly be separated in that way at all?

Edit3: There are oddities in your position I am struggling to get my head around. So far the implied wish or instinct to live grants the right not to be killed. I sort of understand that, though it doesn't seem quite sufficient to me. You say you might allow post-natal termination for babies that have serious conditions that were undetected during pregnancy (why does time of detection matter?), are these only conditions that affect the baby's current will to live? If not you are presumably making judgements on that baby's future quality of life and future will to live. Simultaneously, in my thought experiment, you say we should not kill the suicidal man, because he might change his mind. More writing please.


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cathylynn
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20 Oct 2017, 6:41 pm

Mikah wrote:
carturo222 wrote:
The only reason why we care about other people's wishes is our evolved ability for empathy. If I do not want to die, I can put myself in the shoes of someone at risk of dying and more-or-less-confidently assume they'd want to be safe. The entirety of morality comes from this process.


I think I see the origins of this thinking now, but carry on.

carturo222 wrote:
Part of our effort in making our points clear faces an obstacle in word usage. I use "human" as a solely biological category and "person" as a moral category. It appears to me that you use "human" as a moral category. Am I correct?


No I use it in its biological sense (Edit: actually it's not that simple, I need time to compose a better-than-one word description, as in my other post a few years ago, a human's progression through time is also a part of that understanding, which I don't think falls under biology strictly - whatever else that description is I wouldn't call it a moral category) my morality dictates that, while there are several arguable exceptions, we should not kill other humans and abortion is almost never one of those exceptions. I am wary of creating other categories of humans with the sole purpose of excusing killing, like persons and zygotes, Aryans and....

Edit2: unless... hm can morality and biology sensibly be separated in that way at all?

Edit3: There are oddities in your position I am struggling to get my head around. So far the implied wish or instinct to live grants the right not to be killed. I sort of understand that, though it doesn't seem quite sufficient to me. You say you might allow post-natal termination for babies that have serious conditions that were undetected during pregnancy (why does time of detection matter?), are these only conditions that affect the baby's current will to live? If not you are presumably making judgements on that baby's future quality of life and future will to live. Simultaneously, in my thought experiment, you say we should not kill the suicidal man, because he might change his mind. More writing please.


ah, the old slippery slope - may or may not be a reasonable fear.



Mikah
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20 Oct 2017, 10:20 pm

cathylynn wrote:
ah, the old slippery slope - may or may not be a reasonable fear.


I don't think slippery slope is quite right. I'm not saying abortion leads to holocaust, I'm saying abortion advocates are engaging in the same sort of thinking, it's just less obvious. Dehumanising is a common human self-deception, it's how many murderers justify their crimes. It's how soldiers become more effective killers. I presume it's how abortion doctors sleep at night, telling themselves it wasn't wrong at all, because it wasn't really a human. On that note, I'm off to sleep.


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cathylynn
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20 Oct 2017, 11:28 pm

Mikah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
ah, the old slippery slope - may or may not be a reasonable fear.


I don't think slippery slope is quite right. I'm not saying abortion leads to holocaust, I'm saying abortion advocates are engaging in the same sort of thinking, it's just less obvious. Dehumanising is a common human self-deception, it's how many murderers justify their crimes. It's how soldiers become more effective killers. I presume it's how abortion doctors sleep at night, telling themselves it wasn't wrong at all, because it wasn't really a human. On that note, I'm off to sleep.


look at a photo of a 6-8 week fetus and tell me how it looks different from a fish fetus. what makes a human human to you? to me, it's the ability to have and process emotions. and communication is right up there. i think it's awful to kill an ape, whale, dolphin, or elephant. i have an abortion doctor friend who feels she's doing a great service to men, women, and god. no need to dehumanize anything.



Mikah
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21 Oct 2017, 11:58 am

cathylynn wrote:
look at a photo of a 6-8 week fetus and tell me how it looks different from a fish fetus.


Why do looks matter? What else can it be besides a developing human being?

cathylynn wrote:
what makes a human human to you? to me, it's the ability to have and process emotions. and communication is right up there.


There are many things adult humans might be said to be or to have, younger humans may not have them yet, that does not mean they are not human.


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cathylynn
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21 Oct 2017, 4:22 pm

Mikah wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
look at a photo of a 6-8 week fetus and tell me how it looks different from a fish fetus.


Why do looks matter? What else can it be besides a developing human being?

it has human dna, but not much else that can be classified as uniquely human at that point.
cathylynn wrote:
what makes a human human to you? to me, it's the ability to have and process emotions. and communication is right up there.


There are many things adult humans might be said to be or to have, younger humans may not have them yet, that does not mean they are not human.



GnosticBishop
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26 Oct 2017, 3:51 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?


Especially when that perfect God is a genocidal son murdering prick.

Why on earth would even the most insane, not that I think you are such, want such a vile God?

Please tell us.

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cubedemon6073
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26 Oct 2017, 7:41 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?


Especially when that perfect God is a genocidal son murdering prick.

Why on earth would even the most insane, not that I think you are such, want such a vile God?

Please tell us.

Regards
DL


I'm to imperfect to get it DL both by my ASD and sinful nature. I have no answer. I don't know.



GnosticBishop
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02 Nov 2017, 11:15 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
God is perfect, holy and divine. God is infinite and his holy word is perfect. Mankind including myself is filled with sin and unrighteousness. My mind is but finite. Plus, I have an autism spectrum as well. How can one who is filled with sin and unrighteousness, who's mind is finite plus being on the autism spectrum hope to comprehend and follow the perfect word of a perfect, infinite, holy and divine God?


Especially when that perfect God is a genocidal son murdering prick.

Why on earth would even the most insane, not that I think you are such, want such a vile God?

Please tell us.

Regards
DL


I'm to imperfect to get it DL both by my ASD and sinful nature. I have no answer. I don't know.


You obviously worship power over morality or you would not be wanting an immoral genocidal son murdering God.

Please change your focus to morality and reject Yahweh and his immoral ways.

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DL



shortfatbalduglyman
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02 Nov 2017, 2:56 pm

Because in Christianity, everyone and everything is either completely good or bad

No room for :mrgreen: Kohlberg's :D levels of Morality


Because Buddhists do not go around "educating" people about Buddhism

Because Christians act like - it's my way or the highway

Because of racism sexism and homophobia

"The mark of Cain"

Because different Christians choose what to interpret literally or figuratively

Because some Christians attempt to justify their homophobia by hiding behind an entire religion

Doesn't make sense

If a Buddhist or atheist wants to be homophobic, they can't hide behind an entire religion

Because in Christianity, it is an entire clique. Either you are "in" or not

Buddhists don't do that

:D

Not only that, but Buddha is not so angry and vengeful that Buddha sends people to :cry: hell :cry: to punish them for allegedly disobeying him

Someone can be Buddhist and another religion, and that is OK with Buddha



GnosticBishop
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02 Nov 2017, 3:49 pm

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
Because in Christianity, everyone and everything is either completely good or bad

No room for :mrgreen: Kohlberg's :D levels of Morality


Because Buddhists do not go around "educating" people about Buddhism

Because Christians act like - it's my way or the highway

Because of racism sexism and homophobia

"The mark of Cain"

Because different Christians choose what to interpret literally or figuratively

Because some Christians attempt to justify their homophobia by hiding behind an entire religion

Doesn't make sense

If a Buddhist or atheist wants to be homophobic, they can't hide behind an entire religion

Because in Christianity, it is an entire clique. Either you are "in" or not

Buddhists don't do that

:D

Not only that, but Buddha is not so angry and vengeful that Buddha sends people to :cry: hell :cry: to punish them for allegedly disobeying him

Someone can be Buddhist and another religion, and that is OK with Buddha


Further, if you know any Buddhists, you can feel the love whereas with most Christians I know, you cannot for some of the reasons you put.

My line of of favorite religions is my own Gnostic Christianity, followed by either Karaite Jews, of which there are few, and Buddhism which has a larger following. All these basically put man above God.

The way it should be.

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DL



shortfatbalduglyman
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03 Nov 2017, 9:16 am

Because they claim that abortion is always :D wrong :mrgreen: , but they do not take into account overpopulation, disease, poverty, insufficient parenting skills. Logistics

Because in the united States, Christians are the majority religion. Coins say :cry: in God we trust :mrgreen: . In court, witnesses swear on a Bible. government buildings close for Christmas, not Ramadan. and et cetera. Maybe that is part of why they act so entitled and morally innocent and self important

Because plenty of Christians had the nerve to tell me that it was "lying" when I asked them to call me "he" instead of "she". :cry: San Diego 2004 Gender Therapy :cry: . But that was before the EEOC included gender identity in the list of protected status

But they did not just tell me that I was "lying". They acted like they have never done anything wrong before. They acted like I was :mrgreen: evil :idea: and that I invented "lying".

But when it turned out they were wrong, not one of them

:ninja: fixed the problem they caused

:jester: put the same energy fixing the problem, as they did, causing the problem

:idea: put the slightest amount of energy into saying "I'm sorry sir"

So it was like they could do whatever they wanted and get away with it. But when I did the slightest thing they did not understand, like, or accept, all of a sudden they treated me like Public Enemy Number One :lol:



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03 Nov 2017, 9:43 am

:( :roll:

What?

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shortfatbalduglyman
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03 Nov 2017, 9:51 am

When I came out as transsexual, 2004, San Diego. Almost all the Christians I talked to were totally homophobic

"You make people uncomfortable with the way you dress!"

"You don't care about anyone except yourself!"

:cry:



GnosticBishop
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03 Nov 2017, 10:02 am

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
When I came out as transsexual, 2004, San Diego. Almost all the Christians I talked to were totally homophobic

"You make people uncomfortable with the way you dress!"

"You don't care about anyone except yourself!"

:cry:


Diversity is something that Christians have always fought, even to the point of Inquisitions.

Christians have and continue to ret*d and hinder our advancement to a better and more civilized society.

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DL



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13 Nov 2017, 7:20 pm

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
When I came out as transsexual, 2004, San Diego. Almost all the Christians I talked to were totally homophobic

"You make people uncomfortable with the way you dress!"

"You don't care about anyone except yourself!"

:cry:

Those Christians don't care about anyone except themselves.


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