Why The Judaeo-Christian God Makes No Sense to Me

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GnosticBishop
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12 Sep 2017, 7:22 pm

billegge wrote:
God never made sense to me either, for as far back as I can remember. I even argued with my parents that Santa Clause made no sense. What child does that?

Religious ethics never made sense either. For example you have to give, but the receiver would have to give also, so it contradicts itself.

I think the better thing to do is not to figure out the many ways God does not make sense but to ask the God believers to make sense. If they can't, you are not obliged to believe or consider them.


Many go through the nonsense and arguments you did. Sweet that you did not relent fighting the peer pressure.

Your last is true and I sometimes wish I could quit there. I cannot.

As a Gnostic Christian, I am duty bound to do two thinks. Tell people of my Gnosis and apotheosis, which is nit converting or preaching but just showing the way Jesus taught to do it, and my second duty is to fight evil wherever I see it.

I see a lot of evil in Christianity and Islam and am duty bound to fight them to the end of one of us.

Remain a free thinker my friend. That is the only way for you to become the best possible human as well as find your inner Christ mind.

Regards
DL



Nay
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14 Sep 2017, 6:29 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Nay wrote:
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three persons, one God.


A concept that I had always struggled with, but this person explains it fairly well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G2S5ziDcO0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCv-FAjgps


Gibberish.

Jesus said, do not call me good. Only the Father is good.

Which means that the trinity concept is garbage and that is why those who try to explain it end in gibberish.

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DL



Jesus was a man when He was born into this world. John chapter 17 verse 5 says: Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Much Love, Nay. :heart:



Lintar
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14 Sep 2017, 8:04 pm

billegge wrote:
God never made sense to me either, for as far back as I can remember. I even argued with my parents that Santa Clause made no sense. What child does that?


I used to be this way too.

billegge wrote:
Religious ethics never made sense either. For example you have to give, but the receiver would have to give also, so it contradicts itself.


Yes there has to be a recipient, but the point about giving, as I understand it, is to cultivate a sense of appreciation for the things you have that you can dispense with. After all, as someone once pointed out, we came into this world with literally nothing at all and we shall depart the same way. Nothing that we "have" is truly ours, not even the body we possess.

billegge wrote:
I think the better thing to do is not to figure out the many ways God does not make sense but to ask the God believers to make sense. If they can't, you are not obliged to believe or consider them.


There are a number of arguments for the existence of God, so if you are really interested in finding out it isn't so hard to do so. Some are good, and some are rather bad, but they are there.



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14 Sep 2017, 8:15 pm

smudge wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Of course. Let's not "bother" looking into anything at all we either don't agree with or do not understand. That would actually require a bit of work on our part, and we're just too damned lazy for that. Why are atheists so consistently anti-intellectual? Why are they so afraid to have their nihilistic bubble burst? Why are they so afraid of the truth?

Modern-day atheists, with their lame arguments, make me want to do this - :wall:

Regards!


I love this quote.


Thank you. :D It expresses my frustration when dealing with people like the Gnostic Bishop, people who are either unable or unwilling to consider the possibility that they may actually be wrong about something. That can be said about most internet atheists (especially the ones on YouTube), but it can also be said about most people (ex. people who are actually proud to call themselves Christians) who have taken it upon themselves to define who they are by a set of core beliefs they believe to be unassailable. Nothing should be considered to be so sacrosanct that it cannot be questioned, and if it turns out that what I myself happen to believe at this point in time is proven to be false, then I will have no choice but to abandon those beliefs and move on. It won't mean the end of the world for me. Life is too short to waste one's time with nonsense.



GnosticBishop
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15 Sep 2017, 9:52 am

Nay wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Nay wrote:
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three persons, one God.


A concept that I had always struggled with, but this person explains it fairly well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G2S5ziDcO0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCv-FAjgps


Gibberish.

Jesus said, do not call me good. Only the Father is good.

Which means that the trinity concept is garbage and that is why those who try to explain it end in gibberish.

Regards
DL



Jesus was a man when He was born into this world. John chapter 17 verse 5 says: Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Much Love, Nay. :heart:


IOW, please make me a hero, please, please, whine some more, please, please, please, please and on and on.

You make Jesus a whiny little b***h.

Shame on you.

Regards
DL



GnosticBishop
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15 Sep 2017, 9:58 am

Lintar wrote:

There are a number of arguments for the existence of God, so if you are really interested in finding out it isn't so hard to do so. Some are good, and some are rather bad, but they are there.


All the arguments for a supernatural God are garbage and the ancients knew that.

If any of the arguments would have been good, Christianity and Islam would have grown by those good arguments instead of Inquisitions and Jihads.

The older and more intelligent sages knew better but idol worship ruined the search for God and became just plain old idol worship.

We need to go back to the old thinking as it brings peace instead of the 2,000 years of war that idol worship has gifted us with.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

That link shows a better way. Right?

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DL



GnosticBishop
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15 Sep 2017, 10:10 am

Lintar wrote:

It expresses my frustration when dealing with people like the Gnostic Bishop, people who are either unable or unwilling to consider the possibility that they may actually be wrong about something.


Read my first commandment.

viewtopic.php?t=353899

I love to change my mind on something because then I actually learn something new and valuable. Learning something new is one of the greatest pleasures in life.

I am quite willing and able to accept that I am wrong on something, in fact I am eager to grow what I know, but many like you, especially idol worshiping literalist theists, cannot change my thinking due to poor arguments or just having the wrong ideas which they hang onto without the logic and reason to back them up.

That is why the meanest pricks on the internet are the theists. That is what Sadhguru says in that link you saw and I believe him because Inquisitions and Jihads prove it.

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DL



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16 Sep 2017, 4:32 pm

There is no such thing as god. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support this. God is a laughable, primitive ignorant, human construct.

There is nothing left to be said, the end.


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17 Sep 2017, 5:02 am

Voxish wrote:
There is no such thing as god. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support this. God is a laughable, primitive ignorant, human construct.

There is nothing left to be said, the end.


There is plenty left. Atheism is not the end of the journey, it's a common stop along the way. When you realise that you have no more knowledge of God than I do and what you just said was actually:

Voxish's ode to hope wrote:
I hope there is no such thing as God. Thank God there is absolutely no scientific evidence to support him. I really hope God is a laughable, primitive ignorant, human construct.


Then the journey begins again and you have to ask yourself why you are so desperate to believe there is no God and no judgement.


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17 Sep 2017, 6:17 am

Even though I was brought up in religion, it was a little more open-minded than the regular fundie/Methodist/US Public school types appear to be. Indeed, we were encouraged to question doctrine that didn't fit with the world around us. Creationism (as per bible), for example, was simply considered just one origin story of the of the many found in cultures worldwide. Perhaps if I continued down that path I would have ended up at Bahai'sm (a religious idea worth knowing about).

The two things I couldn't get though, first was the idea of "one" God. Surely that which allows a god should allow more entities?

Second was the obsession with some final judgment / end of days / completionist thing (like wanting to flip to the last chapter of a novel). It seemed both an implicit threat and to express such profound disregard for creation that Christians couldn't wait for their creator to shut-up shop. Also this idea that a great judgement is to happen at an arbitrary future date? Why can't an omnipotent, omnipresent God just decide at our death and get it over with (unless this God is a committed consequentialist and really needs to know the long-term effects of all our actions, well that would stand against fatalism).

It was the arguments of evangelism that finally convinced me the whole thing was a sham, by attempting to convince me that certain ideas could not be "true", but if so God as described in Christianity could not exist. (Actually, even the evangelical respones to this thread remind me of the very reason God can't 'Be').

I take a consequentialist view of religion as a social institution, that does both harm and good, and an agnostic view of the possibility of any god/s. This has been a pretty stable view of mine for about 15 years.



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17 Sep 2017, 6:52 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:

I'm a nature nut. Some of my earliest memories involve me going on camping trips and reading birdwatching books. We are supposed to believe that nature is a creation of God, but nature doesn't look like a creation of a God. Nature and God are practically opposites of one another. They are completely different in terms of character.


I had a very similar childhood, camping, hiking or just spending a day playing at a creek crossing way out in the bush. Nature to be is (beautifully?) haphazard. When I came across Darwin (rather than the pop-science "survival of the fittest") it made so much sense for specialisation to occur on the population level,
and evolution to be a process of mutation subject to trade-offs and long timescales (relative to any individual).

["quote="DarthMetaKnight"]
What I would expect: Don't most fundies believe that diseases come from the Devil? Shouldn't bacteria have something besides DNA? Why would God and Satan use the same sort of code?
Reality: Bacteria and harmful parasites have DNA, which we also have.
[/quote]

Lol, "disease from the devil"? I've never heard that one, would have disowned the religion altogether if I had, the most common response to a disease was fatalist "it's all part of a greater plan (not that you didn't try to cure it with medical science or pray for intercession...).

Overall, Christians believe that God is simple, orderly and caring. Nature is completely different. Nature is complex and uncaring. Nature doesn't give a damn. Religious people are supposed to avoid sin. Meanwhile, wild animals only believe in pragmatism.[/quote]

Agree with most of that, the last point however... from a pragmatic point of view, the actions of animals (and humans much of the time :roll: ) appear positively stupid. It's another reason I don't buy into "intelligent design" whatsoever.



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17 Sep 2017, 8:06 am

Voxish wrote:
There is no such thing as god. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support this. God is a laughable, primitive ignorant, human construct.

There is nothing left to be said, the end.


No argument on your first but I do not like your last.

Knowing the truth of your first statement, what are you doing to fight the mainstream religions that are doing so much damage to our societies with their homophobia and misogyny?

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DL



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17 Sep 2017, 11:38 am

Mikah wrote:
Then the journey begins again and you have to ask yourself why you are so desperate to believe there is no God and no judgement.


When you can say the reverse, the question is moot.

It is normally styled as "Judgment" not with a capital "J", not to be confused with lowercase judgment. A person passing Judgment is strictly forbidden. An aspect of the faith often forgotten by many a religious zealot.

The real question is if such a God is deserving of our respect? I would say definitely not. If there is any test in any of this, it is not to follow such deplorable doctrine.

A cursory look at the archeology will tell you the Israelites were a Canaanite offshoot (not slaves from Egypt), which where originally a polytheistic sect. They only became monotheistic after the Babylonians attacked, and it was a very different concept of monotheism. These were local gods and they didn't want their enemies god's worshiped, as simple as that. Yahweh even had a wife called Asherah, which was conveniently edited out of later versions.



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17 Sep 2017, 1:11 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
When you can say the reverse, the question is moot.

Not moot, atheists just avoid this question like the plague, because it leads them down uncomfortable lines of thought. Why do Christians want to believe? It's pretty easy, a chance at an afterlife, see old friends and family again. The very human desire for Justice and Judgement, especially for those who escape imperfect human justice. The reverse question can be somewhat disturbing. Why do atheists not want an afterlife? More importantly, why do they not want Judgement? Rather than answer the question, they reject the very idea that they have made a choice. No free will for atheists in choosing their religious worldview it seems, something I really believed at one point.

0_equals_true wrote:
The real question is if such a God is deserving of our respect? I would say definitely not. If there is any test in any of this, it is not to follow such deplorable doctrine.


Not the real question, this sort of rhetoric (and its believer equivalent) is all just post-hoc rationalisation for a choice people have already made.

0_equals_true wrote:
A cursory look at the archeology will tell you the Israelites were a Canaanite offshoot (not slaves from Egypt), which where originally a polytheistic sect. They only became monotheistic after the Babylonians attacked, and it was a very different concept of monotheism. These were local gods and they didn't want their enemies god's worshiped, as simple as that. Yahweh even had a wife called Asherah, which was conveniently edited out of later versions.


I know, it's very interesting.


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17 Sep 2017, 3:08 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Then the journey begins again and you have to ask yourself why you are so desperate to believe there is no God and no judgement.


When you can say the reverse, the question is moot.

It is normally styled as "Judgment" not with a capital "J", not to be confused with lowercase judgment. A person passing Judgment is strictly forbidden. An aspect of the faith often forgotten by many a religious zealot.

The real question is if such a God is deserving of our respect? I would say definitely not. If there is any test in any of this, it is not to follow such deplorable doctrine.
.


A judgement I agree with.

Careful buddy, you are getting dangerously close to thinking like a Gnostic Christian.

Good for you. You show decent morals as compared to Christians.

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DL



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17 Sep 2017, 3:18 pm

Mikah wrote:
Quote:
The very human desire for Justice and Judgement, especially for those who escape imperfect human justice.


Do you see Yahweh's justice, based on genocide and substitutionary punishment as somehow better than what secular law has developed?

Do you see stoning unruly children and fornicators as good justice?

Quote:
The reverse question can be somewhat disturbing. Why do atheists not want an afterlife? More importantly, why do they not want Judgement?


I do not think atheists fear judgement. They just do not think a genocidal prick is worthy of judging anyone.

Why would you trust such a corrupt judge?

Quote:
Rather than answer the question, they reject the very idea that they have made a choice. No free will for atheists in choosing their religious worldview it seems, something I really believed at one point.


They exercise their free will and end in rejecting a God that all moral people would reject. Those are not Christians though as evidenced by their adoring a satanic genocidal son murdering Gods.

Regards
DL