desiring religion, but turned off by various factors
04 Sep 2017, 7:33 pm
DataB4 wrote:
I think the root of many of your questions is this one biggie: was everything, or anything, in the Bible truly dictated by God or Jesus? Once you answer that question, other issues, like homosexuality, the relevance of God's behavior to our morals today, and other mysteries of faith will begin to fall into place.
There are many answers to this one big question. You could go with the "inspired by God" idea, which means that humans wrote the Bible and might've gotten some things wrong because of human imperfection. You could go with the "made-up" idea, which is that Christianity is just one of many made-up religions with no basis other than charismatic leaders or the search for explanations or whatever. You could go with the fundamentalist view, which is that the Bible is the divine and inerrant Word of God. This view would require lots of faith and acceptance of the incomprehensible, which you don't seem to have right now.
Pretty much every person of faith with whom I've ever had a discussion says that religion is mostly about faith, or what you feel in your heart. You can't fully embrace religious belief with just your intellect, they say.
What do you like best about the idea of religion, or being a religious person?
There are many answers to this one big question. You could go with the "inspired by God" idea, which means that humans wrote the Bible and might've gotten some things wrong because of human imperfection. You could go with the "made-up" idea, which is that Christianity is just one of many made-up religions with no basis other than charismatic leaders or the search for explanations or whatever. You could go with the fundamentalist view, which is that the Bible is the divine and inerrant Word of God. This view would require lots of faith and acceptance of the incomprehensible, which you don't seem to have right now.
Pretty much every person of faith with whom I've ever had a discussion says that religion is mostly about faith, or what you feel in your heart. You can't fully embrace religious belief with just your intellect, they say.
What do you like best about the idea of religion, or being a religious person?
That's a hard question. I can think of multiple, overall reasons, but I'm stumped for a single, this-is-why reason.
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samuraivader
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04 Sep 2017, 8:04 pm
Maybe not the best english.
You kind of remember me a previous stage in my life, I'm catholic and just a few months ago I came back to the church.
Being myself not an expert, from my own experience I advice you three things:
The first one is to read the Gospels, there are four of them. Feel free to explore them, and know the person of Jesus. When you read them, don't read them as when you read a science book; instead, look for a moment of silence and meditation.
The second one is to analize history of christianity: Jesus found only one church (Mt 16,32; Ef 4,5), you could ask yourself: what of all the christian denominations is the church founded by Jesus Christ? If you analize the origins of each church you can find that a lot (really, a lot) were founded by men but just one was founded by God. You could also ask yourself: Is the Bible the only source of authority? If the answer is yes, why there are so many christian denominations? We catholics believe that the source of authority is Bible and Tradition, that goes since St. Peter, the first Pope, to Francis, the actual Pope. I could also tell a list of factors that diferenciates catholic church from other christian denominations and from non-christian religions, if you want we could talk in private.
And the third one, and probably MOST IMPORTANT, is to stop all the vices (from catholic perspective) you could have, PARTICULARLY lust (not masturbating, don't consent impure thoughts, no sex outside of marriage, and no sex in marriage without the intention of conception). Is hard, but you can if you REALLY try and seek help from God.
I hope you find the truth.
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04 Sep 2017, 8:12 pm
[quote="DataB4"]
Pretty much every person of faith with whom I've ever had a discussion says that religion is mostly about faith, or what you feel in your heart. You can't fully embrace religious belief with just your intellect, they say.
[quote]
I disagree with that view and so does Gnostic Jesus who says that out minds are what think, not our hearts.
Gnostic Jesus was questioned as to what sees the vision?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... /mary.html
The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'
For where the mind is, there is the treasure.
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Regards
DL
04 Sep 2017, 8:19 pm
samuraivader wrote:
Maybe not the best english.
You kind of remember me a previous stage in my life, I'm catholic and just a few months ago I came back to the church.
Being myself not an expert, from my own experience I advice you three things:
The first one is to read the Gospels, there are four of them. Feel free to explore them, and know the person of Jesus. When you read them, don't read them as when you read a science book; instead, look for a moment of silence and meditation.
The second one is to analize history of christianity: Jesus found only one church (Mt 16,32; Ef 4,5), you could ask yourself: what of all the christian denominations is the church founded by Jesus Christ? If you analize the origins of each church you can find that a lot (really, a lot) were founded by men but just one was founded by God. You could also ask yourself: Is the Bible the only source of authority? If the answer is yes, why there are so many christian denominations? We catholics believe that the source of authority is Bible and Tradition, that goes since St. Peter, the first Pope, to Francis, the actual Pope. I could also tell a list of factors that diferenciates catholic church from other christian denominations and from non-christian religions, if you want we could talk in private.
And the third one, and probably MOST IMPORTANT, is to stop all the vices (from catholic perspective) you could have, PARTICULARLY lust (not masturbating, don't consent impure thoughts, no sex outside of marriage, and no sex in marriage without the intention of conception). Is hard, but you can if you REALLY try and seek help from God.
I hope you find the truth.
You kind of remember me a previous stage in my life, I'm catholic and just a few months ago I came back to the church.
Being myself not an expert, from my own experience I advice you three things:
The first one is to read the Gospels, there are four of them. Feel free to explore them, and know the person of Jesus. When you read them, don't read them as when you read a science book; instead, look for a moment of silence and meditation.
The second one is to analize history of christianity: Jesus found only one church (Mt 16,32; Ef 4,5), you could ask yourself: what of all the christian denominations is the church founded by Jesus Christ? If you analize the origins of each church you can find that a lot (really, a lot) were founded by men but just one was founded by God. You could also ask yourself: Is the Bible the only source of authority? If the answer is yes, why there are so many christian denominations? We catholics believe that the source of authority is Bible and Tradition, that goes since St. Peter, the first Pope, to Francis, the actual Pope. I could also tell a list of factors that diferenciates catholic church from other christian denominations and from non-christian religions, if you want we could talk in private.
And the third one, and probably MOST IMPORTANT, is to stop all the vices (from catholic perspective) you could have, PARTICULARLY lust (not masturbating, don't consent impure thoughts, no sex outside of marriage, and no sex in marriage without the intention of conception). Is hard, but you can if you REALLY try and seek help from God.
I hope you find the truth.
Your wording on that last paragraph was confusing. Are you saying I should stop the vices and lust, or that it's difficult to do so, if becoming a Catholic?
I don't think I could manage that. I'd likely go insane. Not masturbating, not having sex for pleasure, and not having lewd or deviant thoughts and fantasies wouldn't work for me.
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Campin_Cat
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04 Sep 2017, 9:09 pm
insertgenericlewdcomment wrote:
I want to be religious, I want spirituality and another method of understanding my existence, other than just logic, science, and thought. The problem is that everytime I try, I feel disgusted and confused. The last time I picked up a Bible, I intended on continuing from where I left off a few years back (the part where God tells the one person to sacrifice his kid to prove his faith in God, but then God stopped him at the last second, because it was a test), and I opened the book, and I read the foreward written by the transcriber. It was written by a man who murdered 20 people as a youth, went to prison, and then after 50 years, converted to Christianity, and began spreading the Lord's light to the other inmates. He stated that he hoped that he and his fellows would be redeemed in the eyes of God. At first, I passed that off as a delusional "reformed" killer trying to sound like he had changed, but I began looking into it, and God sees all sins as equally damning. Read: God sees murder and lying as equally damning crimes. A couple months later, I began to look into Islam, but there were some aspects of the belief that I disagreed with (when I say Islam, I'm not meaning "Jihadist" Islam), so I chose not to join the religion. I'm now desiring some kind of religion again, but if I stop to think about them at all, I don't find them appealing. Advice?
Well, first-off, I'm really glad that you said "another method of understanding my existence, other than just...", because I think one of the reasons some people have the most difficulty with The Bible / religion, is because they're expecting The Bible / religion to provide them with THEE answer, that they were looking-for----and, that they think, seemingly, that there can only be ONE answer.
Secondly, there's no LAW that says one HAS TO read The Bible, in order. I second Yo El's suggestion, of not giving-up, until you've, at least, read the "New Testament"----because the "Old Testament" can, indeed, be very confusing / frustrating (it seems to take about a year-and-a-half, just to get past "begat, begat, begat" LOL).
IMO, when God observed humans having difficulties following Him, He sent His son, to help us (ONE of the reasons, I feel He sent His sons)----and, Jesus gave us (through The New Testament), what I like to call, "The Bible, Lite". Jesus continued the Old Testament instruction that God should be revered, as Creator, Lord, and King, etc.----and, he put, IMO, more of a spotlight on the, maybe, lesser known part of God (ie, that God could be a loving Father, Counselor, and even Friend)----but, He gave us alot more one-on-one teachings, to enrich our understanding and fellowship, of God. Jesus, IMO, was more about reiterating that we should love one another, not bring harm to one another, try to help-out one another----and, you know, try not to kill, another (LOL)! !
Thirdly, it's very difficult for almost ANYBODY to accept that ALL sins are equal, in God's eyes----like, according to the Old Testament, I've been on a one-way trip to Hell, in a handbasket, since the very first time I ate crabmeat, and said: "More, please"! ! The sin of eating shellfish, didn't seem to be a top priority, to Jesus, though----and, Jesus' overall message seemed to be that God would forgive ALL (ALL sins AND sinners); BUT we have to ask for forgiveness, and MEAN it, and we have to ask for forgiveness, by going-THROUGH Jesus (that's why we end our prayers, with "In Jesus' name I pray, Amen").
Another thing that helps me understand alot about God, is that because He is called "Our Father", I think of Him in the context of an earthly father. When an earthly father sets-down rules, for his children, he expects that he'll be listened-to----and, if he's NOT, there'll be Hell, to pay; so, if an earthly father, who has given his children EXACT instructions, gets angry and breaks all their toys, for instance, because the children didn't listen to him..... Well, if it were ME, I would think to myself: "Welp, it serves me right----he told me what to do, and I didn't listen".
Now, as for your saying you feel "disgusted and confused": It's quite possible, IMO, that you feel disgusted with YOURSELF, because you're confused (although, I must say that the OT, at the very least, can be VERY confusing - otherwise, there wouldn't be theologians STILL trying to figure-it-out). It's quite a common emotion, IMO, for an ASDer to feel, because we get so angry at ourselves, at times, because we KNOW we're "smart"----we certainly FEEL like we're smart (for instance, we had no problem reading Newton's Law of Gravity and grasping it - and/or, the properties of a quadrilateral certainly were logical - and/or, that a poem that has 14 lines, is called a sonnet - and a whole HOST of other things)----but, we ALSO know that we can get tripped-up by, seemingly, the SIMPLEST of things----like, what exactly is a "come-hither" look? (LOL)
Another way that helps me understand, is to, sort-of, equate God, to a teacher..... Teachers will, sometimes, give us an assignment to read a book, and give him/her a report, "at the end" (end of reading, in-this-case). The teacher, if he's worth his salt, will KNOW when we've just ONLY read the front/back covers, decided we were smarter than he was, and could "wing it" (the report)----and, he'll ALSO know when we really read the book, tried, as best we could, to understand the message, and poured our heart-and-soul, into the report (also, IMO, he'll also know when we actually read the book, but didn't quite get all of it, but did our best to give a report, anyway).
I feel it's quite possible that God feels the same way. He gave us a book (The Bible), KNOWS whether or not we even TRIED to read / understand it, AND whether or not we poured our heart-and-soul into following His instructions. The Bible says that God said He KNEW we would, sometimes, stumble----that we would find it difficult to follow His EVERY instruction, without falter----but, what's MOST important, it seems, is that we TRIED, and MEANT it (NOT, "Oh, yeah, I agree with everything you [God] said/think - HM-hm...").
The Bottom Line, IMO, is that God just wants us to do our BEST!!
One final thought: I have several versions of The Bible----and, about a hundred-and-one Bible-Study books (not literal)----and, one of the books, that has GREATLY helped me to further my understanding, is THIS book:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592573894/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=
To this DAY, I'll reference it, every once-in-awhile----I, ESPECIALLY, like / appreciate the authors' jokes, puns, and all-around, light-heartedness, etc.
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I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
04 Sep 2017, 9:16 pm
insertgenericlewdcomment wrote:
My third: Is hell truly described in the Bible as a fiery hellscape (no pun intended), with goat-devils and demons poking people with pitchforks? Is heaven ever described as a flowery place where people grow wings, wear togas and laurels, and sit around doing but knitting for all eternity? I'm really curious to know if this is merely a derivative of Vatican-sponsored artwork, or the true depiction.
My fourth and final for now: (This one's a bit silly) Is it wrong that I believe that Jesus may have actually been a woman? When I look at the old artwork/paintings depicting him, I can't help but notice that he is depicted as insanely effeminate, and I wonder if that was changed, due to the fact that Jesus was around the Romans, who were a Patriarchy turned up to eleventy-one, or because the Catholic Church existed in an era of male-centricism.
My fourth and final for now: (This one's a bit silly) Is it wrong that I believe that Jesus may have actually been a woman? When I look at the old artwork/paintings depicting him, I can't help but notice that he is depicted as insanely effeminate, and I wonder if that was changed, due to the fact that Jesus was around the Romans, who were a Patriarchy turned up to eleventy-one, or because the Catholic Church existed in an era of male-centricism.
Heaven and hell are not described according to popular artworks from either then or now.
As for the nature of hell, from Matthew 13, Jesus says this,
"…47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and caught fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away. 49 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 Have you understood all these things?” "
As for why the flood, Genesis 6
"5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”
Quote:
My first question: How can the supreme being, the lord of all, the omnipotent/all knowing God succumb to his anger, commit genocide by drowning the world temporarily, then realize that he screwed up, and then wallow in pity? That never made sense.
I don't think people grasp the full implication of what it means that God is perfect in all ways as well as perfect love and perfect mercy there is perfect holiness and perfect holiness and perfect justice.
How could the following not distress a perfectly holy God,
"The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time"
Then you have to decide whether that is to be taken at face value.
If it is, and you look at the amount of evil in the world now, "only evil all the time" was probably somewhat worse than we can, or at least I can, imagine.
And the root of that goes back to that Garden of Eden thing - whether it was a literal tree and fruit, or the language is metaphor, I don't know. The even is often distorted by the tree, whatever it was, usually being called "the tree of knowledge" instead of its full name, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
There's the thing, the way to have knowledge of evil is to experience evil.
The overall takeaway from the event is that God said if you do this (whatever it actually was) it will hurt you, and they went and did it anyway.
A theological view is that in giving in to Satan's encouragement to disobey God they gave him, and his evil, power over them, power over the Earth.
Rebellion has consequences.
Just as we see between humans here on earth.
Quote:
and then wallow in pity?
Since I look at that and think that's rather cynical, you are going to have to convince me of that, I don't buy it.
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04 Sep 2017, 9:27 pm
Keep reading.
And please don't confine yourself to Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.
There is a whole world of religion out there that has NOTHING to do with the children of Abram/Abraham.
They all have their faults (I would beg you, for example, not to pick up the thread-- more like a rope-- of anti-Christianity that runs through Western NeoPaganism like a plague, or anyway did fifteen years ago when I was a disgusted young seeker), but that's to be expected of any human attempt to understand Deity...
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"Alas, our dried voices when we whisper together are quiet and meaningless, as wind in dry grass, or rats' feet over broken glass in our dry cellar." --TS Eliot, "The Hollow Men"
04 Sep 2017, 9:33 pm
insertgenericlewdcomment wrote:
... not having sex for pleasure, ...
While there is theology involved in various takes on that, it has practical effects regarding casual sex with people you are not married to. Not having casual unmarried sex is a good way to not get disease and to not have to pay child support.
I didn't need any theological reasons to not get involved in the high school and college and then the adult casual sex scene - after seeing the hassles classmates and family members got in to, no, I don't want that in my life. It was very frustrating not having an outlet for sexual desire, absolutely, but when I looked at the chaos that was happening around me it was worth the price to not cause my own chaos.
I come from a different school of thought, a different theology, on having sex for pleasure in addition to sex for procreation. Sex is meant for both - within marriage.
There are several Old Testament stories where having more than one wife, having concubines, having sex outside of marriage, caused problems; sometimes the nation-destroying type and scale of problems.
_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011
04 Sep 2017, 9:58 pm
insertgenericlewdcomment wrote:
My fourth and final for now: (This one's a bit silly) Is it wrong that I believe that Jesus may have actually been a woman? When I look at the old artwork/paintings depicting him, I can't help but notice that he is depicted as insanely effeminate, and I wonder if that was changed, due to the fact that Jesus was around the Romans, who were a Patriarchy turned up to eleventy-one, or because the Catholic Church existed in an era of male-centricism.
Those same painting also usually show him to be a blue eyed European, which leans a little toward the unlikely side, ya know, so the hairstyle probably is just as unlikely.Anyway, given that in the New Testament almost nothing is said about what Jesus looked like, two things are probable:
1. He didn't look enough different from the typical Jewish dude for it to be worthy of comment
2. What he looked like is irrelevant to the message, beyond that he would have looked like someone who would be at least halfway paid attention to by the people in that culture.
Historical references about the era will likely answer the hair situation.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35120965
Quote:
Byzantine artists, looking to show Christ's heavenly rule as cosmic King, invented him as a younger version of Zeus. What has happened over time is that this visualisation of heavenly Christ - today sometimes remade along hippie lines - has become our standard model of the early Jesus.
"So what did Jesus really look like?
Let's go from head to toe.
1. Hair and beard
When early Christians were not showing Christ as heavenly ruler, they showed Jesus as an actual man like any other: beardless and short-haired.
But perhaps, as a kind of wandering sage, Jesus would have had a beard, for the simple reason that he did not go to barbers.
General scruffiness and a beard were thought to differentiate a philosopher (who was thinking of higher things) from everyone else. The Stoic philosopher Epictetus considered it "appropriate according to Nature".
Otherwise, in the 1st Century Graeco-Roman world, being clean-shaven and short-haired was considered absolutely essential. A great mane of luxuriant hair and a beard was a godly feature, not replicated in male fashion. Even a philosopher kept his hair fairly short.
A beard was not distinctive of being a Jew in antiquity. In fact, one of the problems for oppressors of Jews at different times was identifying them when they looked like everyone else (a point made in the book of Maccabees). However, images of Jewish men on Judaea Capta coins, issued by Rome after the capture of Jerusalem in 70AD, indicate captive men who are bearded.
So Jesus, as a philosopher with the "natural" look, might well have had a short beard, like the men depicted on Judaea Capta coinage, but his hair was probably not very long. "
"So what did Jesus really look like?
Let's go from head to toe.
1. Hair and beard
When early Christians were not showing Christ as heavenly ruler, they showed Jesus as an actual man like any other: beardless and short-haired.
But perhaps, as a kind of wandering sage, Jesus would have had a beard, for the simple reason that he did not go to barbers.
General scruffiness and a beard were thought to differentiate a philosopher (who was thinking of higher things) from everyone else. The Stoic philosopher Epictetus considered it "appropriate according to Nature".
Otherwise, in the 1st Century Graeco-Roman world, being clean-shaven and short-haired was considered absolutely essential. A great mane of luxuriant hair and a beard was a godly feature, not replicated in male fashion. Even a philosopher kept his hair fairly short.
A beard was not distinctive of being a Jew in antiquity. In fact, one of the problems for oppressors of Jews at different times was identifying them when they looked like everyone else (a point made in the book of Maccabees). However, images of Jewish men on Judaea Capta coins, issued by Rome after the capture of Jerusalem in 70AD, indicate captive men who are bearded.
So Jesus, as a philosopher with the "natural" look, might well have had a short beard, like the men depicted on Judaea Capta coinage, but his hair was probably not very long. "
_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011
04 Sep 2017, 10:14 pm
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
insertgenericlewdcomment wrote:
... not having sex for pleasure, ...
While there is theology involved in various takes on that, it has practical effects regarding casual sex with people you are not married to. Not having casual unmarried sex is a good way to not get disease and to not have to pay child support.
I didn't need any theological reasons to not get involved in the high school and college and then the adult casual sex scene - after seeing the hassles classmates and family members got in to, no, I don't want that in my life. It was very frustrating not having an outlet for sexual desire, absolutely, but when I looked at the chaos that was happening around me it was worth the price to not cause my own chaos.
I come from a different school of thought, a different theology, on having sex for pleasure in addition to sex for procreation. Sex is meant for both - within marriage.
There are several Old Testament stories where having more than one wife, having concubines, having sex outside of marriage, caused problems; sometimes the nation-destroying type and scale of problems.
I'm seriously considering a vescectomy because of that. I know that it's not fool-proof (I've heard that it can actually heal, but apparently it's very rare), but I hate condoms.
I'm still wondering what samuraivader meant, however.
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Campin_Cat
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05 Sep 2017, 12:34 am
insertgenericlewdcomment and Campin_Cat wrote:
My first question: How can the supreme being, the lord of all, the omnipotent/all knowing God succumb to his anger, commit genocide by drowning the world temporarily, then realize that he screwed up, and then wallow in pity? That never made sense.
Well, first-of-all, assuming you're speaking-about the story of Noah, I don't feel that God ever "wallowed in pity" because He "screwed-up". I feel that the message seems to be that God felt great SORROW because His creations (humans) weren't listening to Him, and following His instructions, and so-forth (THEY were screwing-up), and were getting / being hurt.
Again, I equate Him to an earthly father, to further gain understanding. When an earthly father gives his young son, say, a rule to not go-out in the dark without the father being there, to make sure he is safe, and then, the son goes-out, anyway----and, let's say the son only trips-over a vine, and falls-down, and "only" ends-up with some minor cuts and scrapes..... When the kid gets home, you can BEST bet, that the father will, probably, be absolutely FURIOUS with him, was worried, SICK, and will punish his son.
I feel, it's quite possible that God felt, similarly----and, why he punished those, who had not listened to him, by sending "the great flood".
My second question: Is homosexuality truly a sin? I've often wondered if the phrasing of the frequently cited "thou shall not sleep with another man" was possibly because A) It was transcribed by many different people, over a vast amount of time, and somewhere along the line, a transcriber may have been homophobic or something, or B) The fact that it was copied into many different languages back and forth may have resulted in a misinterpretation, or C) Both. I'm somewhat bisexual, with a preference for women, and I don't think it's right to discriminate based on what someone does with their partner(s) in the privacy of their home, so I think that's a big question.
Well, IMO, it's quite possible that this, like MANY Bible verses, could be looked-at, a couple of different ways..... First-of-all, IIRC, the verse says something more, like: "Man shall not lie with another man, as with a woman". Now, according to the Old Testament, the only reason people should be having sex, is to procreate----the ONLY reason; but, again, the New Testament, gives us a bit of a different interpretation..... When Paul was writing to the churches (I THINK he spoke to the Corinthians, in particular, regarding this matter - but I'm not real good with chapter and verse), his letters seemed to convey, MORE, that sex was to be saved for marriage, and that it was the ultimate "oneness", between two people, and to NOT be indiscriminate. IOW, IMO, ONE interpretation of "don't be indiscriminate", for example, could be: "Don't be goin'-around stickin' your 'thing' in, just, ANYTHING" (this, IMO, includes bestiality which The Bible speaks-against), which is how Paul, maybe, saw it, when men were having sex with men (that they were not being indiscriminate, and didn't have any interest in a committed relationship).
My third: Is hell truly described in the Bible as a fiery hellscape (no pun intended), with goat-devils and demons poking people with pitchforks? Is heaven ever described as a flowery place where people grow wings, wear togas and laurels, and sit around doing but knitting for all eternity? I'm really curious to know if this is merely a derivative of Vatican-sponsored artwork, or the true depiction.
Yeah, that seems to be more along the lines of what is depicted in Art. I don't think I've ever seen anything about pitchforks, and laurels and togas, and knitting (LOL), in The Bible----the "fiery hellscape", though, seems accurate.
My fourth and final for now: (This one's a bit silly) Is it wrong that I believe that Jesus may have actually been a woman? When I look at the old artwork/paintings depicting him, I can't help but notice that he is depicted as insanely effeminate, and I wonder if that was changed, due to the fact that Jesus was around the Romans, who were a Patriarchy turned up to eleventy-one, or because the Catholic Church existed in an era of male-centricism.
I'm thinking what one is suppose to be seeing, in art, in Jesus' face, for instance, is goodness and light, and sweetness and love, and stuff, like that----and, let's face it, there's been more than ONE man who has possessed those qualities, who has been accused of being gay, for instance; so, that might be why you've thought that he appeared "effeminate" (because, maybe, you were looking at it, stereotypically).
Well, first-of-all, assuming you're speaking-about the story of Noah, I don't feel that God ever "wallowed in pity" because He "screwed-up". I feel that the message seems to be that God felt great SORROW because His creations (humans) weren't listening to Him, and following His instructions, and so-forth (THEY were screwing-up), and were getting / being hurt.
Again, I equate Him to an earthly father, to further gain understanding. When an earthly father gives his young son, say, a rule to not go-out in the dark without the father being there, to make sure he is safe, and then, the son goes-out, anyway----and, let's say the son only trips-over a vine, and falls-down, and "only" ends-up with some minor cuts and scrapes..... When the kid gets home, you can BEST bet, that the father will, probably, be absolutely FURIOUS with him, was worried, SICK, and will punish his son.
I feel, it's quite possible that God felt, similarly----and, why he punished those, who had not listened to him, by sending "the great flood".
My second question: Is homosexuality truly a sin? I've often wondered if the phrasing of the frequently cited "thou shall not sleep with another man" was possibly because A) It was transcribed by many different people, over a vast amount of time, and somewhere along the line, a transcriber may have been homophobic or something, or B) The fact that it was copied into many different languages back and forth may have resulted in a misinterpretation, or C) Both. I'm somewhat bisexual, with a preference for women, and I don't think it's right to discriminate based on what someone does with their partner(s) in the privacy of their home, so I think that's a big question.
Well, IMO, it's quite possible that this, like MANY Bible verses, could be looked-at, a couple of different ways..... First-of-all, IIRC, the verse says something more, like: "Man shall not lie with another man, as with a woman". Now, according to the Old Testament, the only reason people should be having sex, is to procreate----the ONLY reason; but, again, the New Testament, gives us a bit of a different interpretation..... When Paul was writing to the churches (I THINK he spoke to the Corinthians, in particular, regarding this matter - but I'm not real good with chapter and verse), his letters seemed to convey, MORE, that sex was to be saved for marriage, and that it was the ultimate "oneness", between two people, and to NOT be indiscriminate. IOW, IMO, ONE interpretation of "don't be indiscriminate", for example, could be: "Don't be goin'-around stickin' your 'thing' in, just, ANYTHING" (this, IMO, includes bestiality which The Bible speaks-against), which is how Paul, maybe, saw it, when men were having sex with men (that they were not being indiscriminate, and didn't have any interest in a committed relationship).
My third: Is hell truly described in the Bible as a fiery hellscape (no pun intended), with goat-devils and demons poking people with pitchforks? Is heaven ever described as a flowery place where people grow wings, wear togas and laurels, and sit around doing but knitting for all eternity? I'm really curious to know if this is merely a derivative of Vatican-sponsored artwork, or the true depiction.
Yeah, that seems to be more along the lines of what is depicted in Art. I don't think I've ever seen anything about pitchforks, and laurels and togas, and knitting (LOL), in The Bible----the "fiery hellscape", though, seems accurate.
My fourth and final for now: (This one's a bit silly) Is it wrong that I believe that Jesus may have actually been a woman? When I look at the old artwork/paintings depicting him, I can't help but notice that he is depicted as insanely effeminate, and I wonder if that was changed, due to the fact that Jesus was around the Romans, who were a Patriarchy turned up to eleventy-one, or because the Catholic Church existed in an era of male-centricism.
I'm thinking what one is suppose to be seeing, in art, in Jesus' face, for instance, is goodness and light, and sweetness and love, and stuff, like that----and, let's face it, there's been more than ONE man who has possessed those qualities, who has been accused of being gay, for instance; so, that might be why you've thought that he appeared "effeminate" (because, maybe, you were looking at it, stereotypically).
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White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
05 Sep 2017, 12:51 am
I think it might be good to drop all that and take a break with Buddhism. It's a sort of "clear the decks" experience.
Here is something to watch out for as you seek: Anybody who says you should obey him instead of what you feel to be God, because he is a lot closer to God than you - run for the hills. He may not even know he's a phony, but he is, and it's dangerous to the spiritual life.
samuraivader
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 54
Location: Latin America
05 Sep 2017, 8:12 am
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
I come from a different school of thought, a different theology, on having sex for pleasure in addition to sex for procreation. Sex is meant for both - within marriage
Are you catholic?
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samuraivader
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 15 Jun 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 54
Location: Latin America
05 Sep 2017, 8:49 am
[quote="insertgenericlewdcomment"]
Your wording on that last paragraph was confusing. Are you saying I should stop the vices and lust, or that it's difficult to do so, if becoming a Catholic?
I don't think I could manage that. I'd likely go insane. Not masturbating, not having sex for pleasure, and not having lewd or deviant thoughts and fantasies wouldn't work for me.
[\quote]
Sorry, I don't have perfect english.
What I'm trying to say is that is difficult to elevate the soul to the spiritual things when you are following the lower desires of your body. Don't see itself as a 'to close and resign', instead try to see as a new love to life. And not just lust, you can, for example, quit sloth for a love to work, you can also quit gluttony for a love to health,...
It's difficult to stop lust for any person who has comitted this sin, but the word of God and personal experience prove that is possible. You can see it, for example, as 'fidelity to marital love' instead of abstinence.
Why not try the option? What if you avoid lust for 3 months and then come back telling us what new things you discovered about it?
If your heart is truly searching the truth, you will find it, so don't worry about the opinions of others and don't resign if you feel this as an horrible pain in the first days.
Greetings in Christ and Mary.
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"You can't direct the wind, but you can adjust your sails."
05 Sep 2017, 9:10 am
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
As for the nature of hell, from Matthew 13, Jesus says this,
"…47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and caught fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away. 49 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 Have you understood all these things?” "
I think another question people might have, wether you get destroyed( as in die) in hell or will you have to suffer for eternity?
"…47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and caught fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down and sorted the good fish into containers, but threw the bad away. 49 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous, 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 51 Have you understood all these things?” "
