desiring religion, but turned off by various factors

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I think another question people might have, wether you get destroyed( as in die) in hell or will you have to suffer for eternity?

Strangely, atheists really know their Mosaic/Pauline writings. It seems to confirm to me that they care more about their collective contrarianism than their own personal beliefs; but, I digress.

As another gnostic Christian, I would advise simply that the OP accept that which is agreeable in the Bible, and ignore that which is disagreeable. Paul said several times that understanding the Bible requires the reader to use "reason" or logic. As the primary apologist for Christianity, what Paul suggests of us, to that extent, is some good advice.

During the Age of Reason, even Thomas Jefferson "copied and pasted" only those biblical passages with which he agreed into his own version of the Bible. Even Benjamin Franklin wrote in 1757 that "If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?"

So, assigning oneself to certain protocols and expectations probably doesn't yield the kind of wisdom we are seeking.

This looks like it says suffer for eternity, Matthew 25


so does this, Mark 9


This too, Revelation 20
A person will have to determine whether they wish to take it allegorically or literally.
Given what Jesus himself said in the 2 references above, it could well be literal.


Daniel, a book of prophecy in the Old Testament, has a statement which looks to be related to the issue,
Daniel 12:1-2

I have a great desire for there to be a "heaven." I don't want to float in oblivion when I die.

But I just can't bring myself to believe in any god or spirit.

More should seek to live in reality instead of a delusional supernatural infected world of Gods who are less than human and quite immoral.

Regards
DL

Well, humans have an ever-present need for there to be some kind of explanation or reason for our existence, our world's, and our reality's. If you look throughout history, everytime religion is ousted, something that is religion by any other word has replaced it. Logic and reason, cults of personality, and more were integrated during the time of the French revolution, Marxism, then Communism, then finally Stalinism for the Soviet Union, borderline Hitler-worship, patriotism, cultural pride, and militant nationalism for Hitler's Germany (although religion was tolerated for a time, I believe that Hitler and the Nazi party began opposition towards the idea later on), and there's plenty more. It's a nessessary thing, as it binds us together, gives us meaning, and drives us to be better (though, not always. Bin Laden's Jihadist ideals, for example, or Westborough's loonybin) persons, morally and otherwise.

Not every religious tenet but most as they become outdated and not up to new and better standards. That is as it should be to all Gnostic Christians.

To a Gnostic Christian, nothing is sacred but is just the best to date. That is what being a perpetual seeker of the best rules and laws to live life by is all about and we should all be seeking those all times.

Regards
DL

I don't want to derail the thread but I would like to understand this idea of seeing visions of faith with the mind and looking at the Bible selectively.

The quoted passage goes on to say that fellow disciples doubted Mary's vision, at least at first. Many others might've continued doubting.

If we look at the Bible, pick out what makes sense and what feels right, then we're still left with faith as the ultimate decider. Without more certain knowledge, people have to use their "wisdom and discernment" and then have faith in the truth of their beliefs. Maybe I'm confused on what you're both saying here: without faith, how do people decide which parts of a religious text, if any, have truth?

Yep....it's all a matter of "faith." "Logic," in the syllogistic sense, has no input here.

Tell me, why is the like of fired called the second death if you suffer for eternity. Doesn't make sense to me. Only source you mentioned where it clearly states tormenting for eternity is revelation 20, but only for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet. Yet I can't think of scripture saying this about people. Also Maleachi seems to imply that the people will be burnt up: link ( https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=KJV ) John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Doesn't perish mean to pass away. Being allive in hell for eternity doesn't seem like perishing to me. The punishment is eternal as stated but maybe that implies that there is no going back you will be gone for eternity, I don't know? What is your opinion on this?

Part of it is that your body dies then comes eternal separation from God. Fellowship with God is described as life and being cut off from God is described as death, that being the second death here. For any more insight than that you will have to talk to the people who originally stated or recorded that in those words.
As an additional note, while pop culture hell has it being with friends there is theological discussion that people there will be isolated, alone, basically solitary confinement without end. That would make sense as the opposite of eternal fellowship in the new heaven and the new earth. I think popular culture forgets there will be a new Earth after the end of this world; along with what is described as a new heaven.
The clouds and harps and angel wings thing is fantasy; which was perhaps used symbolically at one point, either way, it remains fantasy.
People do not become angels, we remain people.
One reference supporting the beginning of that concept, from Psalm 8


Sorry, mate but it clearly does say that people will be. Read it again paying attention to
Read Matthew 25 again paying attention to

The devil with pitchfork thing is a fantasy too, before he got arrogant and wanted to become equal, at least, to God, he was Lucifer, whose name as used today is related to the Latin term for light. I'd have to go look up what it was in the original ancient Hebrew. Actually, one could symbolically describe him as a stunningly handsome and suave fellow in a 3 piece Armani suit. What he brings looks good on the surface but in the end it will bring chaos and suffering.
Getting a bit theological here, it does make sense for him to influence people to portray him as a silly cartoon character and thereby dismiss, deflect, obscure, the seriousness of who he is and what he does - if you dismiss out of hand that someone can have power over you it makes it much easier for them to in fact have the power you have blinded yourself to. That is likely the reason for the popular cartoon portrayal of life in heaven, the dismissing of the whole concept as "Oh, something so silly can't be real"

A lot of the problem is wrapped up in the language used to describe God by faith leaders, omnipotent, omniscient... perfection etc. It's nice rhetoric, but it doesn't quite fit the narrative of the Bible - where God makes mistakes, changes his mind, creates an imperfect world. Myself I'm pretty happy to let the flood stand as allegory, rather than historical truth. The importance of the allegory being that it's the first step along the path to the non-interventionist Christian God we all secretly resent a little bit for not intervening, the God that doesn't send plagues and disasters when mankind is being very naughty. Something forgotten by some preachers today, who say things like floods and earthquakes are due to rampant homosexuality.

As an aside, this relatively non-interventionist approach marks a fundamental difference between Christianity and historical Judaism and later Islam, who are more similar than they dare consider. The latter two very much believed in temporal reward for faith, be it monetary or military success or what have you. Failure to acquire these things was and still is seen as failure of piety for many believers. Christianity said quite the opposite, that success in the material world is often the result of a lack of virtue and that all souls are equal before God, a big reason Christ's revelations were so unwelcome in the Jewish world. That belief lead indirectly to the progressive worldview we see rampant today



It's a tricky one, it probably deserves its own thread. I don't know if there is a go-to, generally accepted Christian viewpoint anymore, mainly due to the gay marriage debacle, which wasn't really about homosexuals, but a contrived political massacre by a coalition of radicals flexing their muscles. Briefly though, for homosexuals who want to be Christian, you either go down GB's non-Christian Christian gnostic route (which is nothing but left wing progressivism wrapped up in spirituality) or you refrain from acting on those desires, becoming the celibate intellectual - which is a hell of a task.



No idea. Divine judgement is key to Christianity and many other religions, if there's judgement, there are rewards and punishments. The specifics of either I don't think are too important.

Yes, so people not written in the book get thrown into the lake of fire. But where does it say these people will be tormented forever. Unlike in revelation 20, where it says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for eternity. I can't find the part of scripture saying these people will be tormented for eternity, atleast the parts you send me. It does however say, the fire burns for eternity and the punishment is for eternity. Death can also be seen as an eternal punishment.

On that point we're opposites, but, hey, a conversation void of differing views is worth, what ...?

Hehe, well there's not much in it. Either the world was imperfect and we are its imperfect creations (for Christians who accept evolution) or the world was perfect and we messed it up (for the creationists). Either way creation was an imperfect event, God has accepted this and thankfully, decided to stop trying to destroy us all and start over.

Given that it is apparently the same lake, most people deduce that the same conditions apply to all who go there.